From a Loco Works in Norfolk

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Horsetan
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Re: From a Loco Works in Norfolk

Postby Horsetan » Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:07 am

LenPinder wrote:
Horsetan wrote:The style of his kits are unmistakable, and the kits speak for themselves.



:o If you've got one!


What's stopping you? Order one from Dave, and enjoy...... :thumb
That would be an ecumenical matter.

LenPinder
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Re: From a Loco Works in Norfolk

Postby LenPinder » Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:57 am

Horsetan wrote:
LenPinder wrote:
Horsetan wrote:The style of his kits are unmistakable, and the kits speak for themselves.



:o If you've got one!


What's stopping you? Order one from Dave, and enjoy...... :thumb


Sorry to keep dragging this off topic your Lordship ;) but I will just respond to Horsetan once more then I will get out of your hair for good.

Horestan

I know you mean well :P but I have about 18 other loco kits I have purchased for my retirement and, at the current rate of progress of about 1 every 6 to 8 months, I don't know whether I could get around to it (roundtuit ? ) before I turn my toes up.

Len

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Re: From a Loco Works in Norfolk

Postby DougN » Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:20 am

Len you can't be that slow.... I work full time and get through about a kit a year! :D ... I guess you and I should work harder. I admit that I don't have that many loco's to build in hand... But lots on the manufacturers shelves. 8-)
Doug
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Lord Colnago
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Re: From a Loco Works in Norfolk

Postby Lord Colnago » Sat Mar 21, 2015 6:21 pm

A busy period of late has slowed things down a bit but I did manage to do a small job on the tender buffers. Those supplied have a lip on the ends, whereas the WD tender buffers don't. I assume its the same at the other end of the loco but I haven't got there yet! In the instructions, you are advised to turn this lip off, either in the lathe or in a mini-drill. Having splashed out on a mini lathe, I felt that I really ought to use it.

The problem is that the lip on the rear of the buffer is insufficient to be held by the lathe chuck. I would imagine that its little different in a mini drill chuck. I turned a piece of brass rod down so that it was a nice slide fit inside the buffer housing and then soldered it to the rod, as seen below.

IMGP0487.JPG


The rod was then put into the lathe chuck and the lip turned off the buffer. The buffer was then unsoldered from the rod and both were cleaned up. I then ran a reamer a little way into the buffer to clean off any solder that might be inside and likely to interfere with the buffer head's operation. I put the buffer housing in a pin chuck and checked that the buffer head could slide nicely inside the housing, again as seen below.

IMGP0489.JPG


The procedure was repeated for the other buffer as you might expect. The lip at the rear of each buffer has to be filed to clear the tender frames, so this was done and a quick trial fit carried out to prove all was well. That's all for now. If memory serves, the next job is to fit the wheels and set them up all at the same height. Should be fun.
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grovenor-2685
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Re: From a Loco Works in Norfolk

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:22 pm

Lord Colnago wrote:A busy period of late has slowed things down a bit but I did manage to do a small job on the tender buffers. Those supplied have a lip on the ends, whereas the WD tender buffers don't. I assume its the same at the other end of the loco but I haven't got there yet! In the instructions, you are advised to turn this lip off, either in the lathe or in a mini-drill. Having splashed out on a mini lathe, I felt that I really ought to use it.

The problem is that the lip on the rear of the buffer is insufficient to be held by the lathe chuck. I would imagine that its little different in a mini drill chuck. I turned a piece of brass rod down so that it was a nice slide fit inside the buffer housing and then soldered it to the rod, as seen below.

I was able to hold the buffers OK in my Unimat chuck using the rear lip, then take off the lip with a file.

The lip at the rear of each buffer has to be filed to clear the tender frames, so this was done and a quick trial fit carried out to prove all was well. That's all for now. If memory serves, the next job is to fit the wheels and set them up all at the same height. Should be fun.

That bit not mentioned in the instructions, but I suppose somethings have to be left for one to find out.

I can't say I am enamoured of the mechanics of soldering the spring wire to the edge of the bearing carrier, I would much prefer Bill Bedford style three fingered carriers, unfortunatel Bill's coach bogioe versions are to short and his wagon versions to long, the short ones would need new spring mountings on the chassis so I decided to try the kit design and modify later if spring reliability became an issue.

An experiment with the supplied bearings and pinpoint axles quickly demonstrated that the level of "brutality" needed to get them in was more than I was prepared to apply. (The instructions do say to be brutal). Seeing as you may have to have them in and out several times for spring adjustment then for painting it seemed that the chassis would suffer a lot. So I have followed John in using the exactoscale parallel conversion axles. These allow each wheel to be mounted nicely on its own stub sleeve then the wheelset assembled in situ by threading the 1mm axle through from the outside. Zero stress on the chassis. One only needs to lock the axles in place with a dab of loctite when all the adjusting, painting etc is complete.

One problem with this technique is that the parallel bearings need to be aligned more accurately that pinpoints and they are a loose fit in the bearing carriers. To keep the axle alignment at right angles to the bearing carrier I found a jig essential, this just consists of a 1mm hole in an mdf block, the hole being drilled in the pillar drill to be sure its perpendicular (and checked with a square). A couple of marks on the jig also show the length of spring wire required, then both bearing and spring wire can be soldered in place.

Here is the jig, having just completed the set of 8 bearing carriers,
bearing-jig.jpg


And these two pics show the trial fit of the first axle.
chassis1.jpg

chassis2.jpg


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Keith
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Lord Colnago
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Re: From a Loco Works in Norfolk

Postby Lord Colnago » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:07 pm

Those who take an interest in the weather forecast may notice that the air has turned blue over a certain part of Norfolk this evening! Allow me to explain this phenomenon.

After a busy week on other business, I followed this up with a week of severe back pain and an unpleasant reaction to some pain-killers. (Don't worry, you haven't got rid of me yet). Anyway, tonight I decided to get back on the horse, as it were, and set up the tender springs on the WD. As one expects, there was some to-ing and fro-ing with axles being taken out and put back in again and taken out again, etc. etc., but I finally reached the point where I had set up the last spring wire only to drop the bearing carrier on the floor as I picked it up to replace it in the tender chassis. A long, frustrating search ensued but to no avail. The carpet god has claimed its sacrifice. I will look again tomorrow by which time the steam may have cleared from my glasses but there is an ominous looking gap between the floorboards just in the region where the bearing carrier fell. To top things off, there are no spares in the kit! If tomorrow's search proves fruitless, I will have to decide whether to ask Mr.B if he has any spares or whether to knock one up from scratch. I also have a bad wobble on one of the wheels. Suffice it to say, my hairdryer idea doesn't seem to work with Gibson wheels. I guess I'll have to get a replacement set at Scalefour North so don't expect too much progress until afterwards. And everything was going so well!

grovenor-2685 wrote:I was able to hold the buffers OK in my Unimat chuck using the rear lip, then take off the lip with a file.


Hi Kieth,

I have one of those Chinese Mini-Lathes and there is a slight chamfer at the point where the jaws meet. Its not much, but it was enough to prevent me from getting a proper grip on the rear of the buffer. I like your idea of mounting the axles. One thing I noticed from your photo of the wheels in the chassis is that the brass stub axles meet nicely in the centre (I assume they are Exactoscale) whereas the ones I have leave a gap of 3-4mm. which is a bit unsightly. They were a recent purchase so I assume you have some older ones. I certainly don't remember them coming up short when I have used them in the past.
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Mark Tatlow
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Re: From a Loco Works in Norfolk

Postby Mark Tatlow » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:20 pm

John,

Get a strongish magnet; the guitar wire is steel and will be much easier to get with a sweep of the carpet with such a wand!
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Re: From a Loco Works in Norfolk

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:46 pm

One thing I noticed from your photo of the wheels in the chassis is that the brass stub axles meet nicely in the centre (I assume they are Exactoscale) whereas the ones I have leave a gap of 3-4mm. which is a bit unsightly. They were a recent purchase so I assume you have some older ones. I certainly don't remember them coming up short when I have used them in the past.

They have certainly been in my collection a long time, I think they came from Bernard! I have had all 4 axles in and tried it on my sharpest curve, seems OK. I have not tried to adjust the springs as I don't have much of a clue yet what the eventual weight will be. Also had one wobbly wheel but already had a spare pair so still one wheel in reserve. I have made a bit of progress elsewhere, fitted the front buffers on the tender. Hard to tell if the spring rate is OK but they have to be fitted before the drag beam is soldered in so far as I can see, and that is now done, If the spring is too long all I can do is remove it. Fitted the motor cradle, rather tricky to get the curve right but it got there in the end. And made a start on the body. Must take some more pictures.
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Keith
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Keith
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Re: From a Loco Works in Norfolk

Postby grovenor-2685 » Wed Apr 01, 2015 4:38 pm

Here are the promised pics. I rather think I need to start the loco chassis and confirm the motor, driveline, gearbox setup before the tender can really move any further.
Keith
chassis-3.jpg

chassis-4.jpg

tender body.jpg
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Re: From a Loco Works in Norfolk

Postby Lord Colnago » Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:46 pm

As I haven't posted anything on how things have been progressing of late, I thought a short update in order. You may recall much angst concerning lost springs and wobbly wheels. When the red mist cleared and I'd had a chance to think about things, I remembered two things. Firstly, WD pony truck and tender wheels are the same, so I was able to replace the wobbler straightaway. Secondly, I had a fret of Dave's bearing carriers, which are designed primarily for easy conversion of wagon kits to springing and which I thought I might be able to use to replace the lost item. I had to add a little strengthening as the ones in the kit are solid, whereas these had a square etched out of them. The replacement was also a bit longer than those in the kit and needed shortening. I did find that, once installed, the tender didn't quite sit right and that the replacement spring seemed stronger than the others. This was due to the fact that the interface between the spring and the bearing carrier was longer than on those in the kit. Once shortened, all was well.

I have now progressed slightly beyond where Keith had got to in his last photo, posted above, insofar as I have installed the motor and its fixing. I shall post a photo next time.

Finally, a tale to amuse. I took my J39 to Scalefour North, with the intention of giving it a run on Mark Tatlow's Portchullin. It has its motor in the tender driving via a pair of UJs and a shaft to a High Level gearbox in the loco. Throughout construction and testing it had run very nicely, but a rolling road and up and down a straight track isn't really putting it through its paces and I wanted to see how it would perform through some pointwork and curved track. The loco was duly run on the layout and, whilst it negotiated the curves and pointwork successfully, it sounded like a coffee grinder trying to powder gravel! Far worse in reverse than forwards, but that isn't saying much.

Investigations began upon return home. I thought at first that the gearbox may have been touching the lead weight inside the loco body. I milled enough of the lead away to give ample clearance but the noise persisted. I next checked the gearbox itself and it became clear that there was some fore and aft play in the worm. The worm was removed and some washers added to the shaft to remove the end float. Upon re-assembly, the noise persisted. It seemed to me to be worse than before but I fear that was more a case of "the glass half empty" in me. The only other thing that came to mind was that the shaft between gearbox and motor might be either too loose or too tight. The former seemed to be the case so the motor securing screw was slackened off and the play in the shaft taken up. The noise persisted and only a week had passed! I was forced to the conclusion that something had gone wrong in the gearbox, as this seemed to be the source of the noise.

I should mention that the female half of the UJ at the gearbox end, protrudes into the loco cab and as I sat back in my chair to ponder my next move, I looked into the cab. Was the driver's shoe touching the UJ, thought I? Well it was, but you had to look hard to see it. When I picked the loco up and looked, the shoe didn't touch the UJ at all as the axleboxes drop with no weight on them but when sitting on the track there is contact. I didn't see that I had anything to lose by taking the driver out, so I did. No noise, neither forwards or backwards. Suffice to say, the driver has undergone major surgery but seems none the worse back at the regulator.

I have learned two things from this experience. Never give up on a problem and never assume that the logical path will get you to where you want to go.

We do love our hobby, don't we?
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Re: From a Loco Works in Norfolk

Postby Lord Colnago » Tue May 19, 2015 9:08 pm

Other things have taken up much of my time of late (Scalefour North, driver's boots getting in the way, Committee meeting and the start of the time trialling season) and I have been remiss in failing to update on progress. I have now concocted a motor mount, which can be seen below. The rubber padding is cut from an old bicycle inner tube. Handy stuff and one tube goes a long way. No pun intended!

IMGP0565.JPG


I have also soldered up the brake hangers and blocks and fitted them. The centre section of the rearmost pair needs to be cut away to allow access to the body fixing screws, which I did with a slitting disc in a mini-drill. The photos don't show this but, rest assured, it has been done.

IMGP0562.JPG


Now to the fun bit, the brake gear rigging and the operating lingages connecting the rigging to the hand brake lever on the tender footplate. These jobs, to me, are the ones I enjoy the most, albeit that they can sometimes be quite time consuming. Just as there is nothing quite so frustrating as trying to get fiddly little parts to behave themselves and go where you want, equally, there is so much satisfaction in getting such bits all set up. The next two pictures show the rigging, which is removeable, in place and the operating shaft and linkages in place. The two linkages that connect the operating shaft to the rigging are only soldered to the connecting lever on the shaft itself and this is not soldered to the shaft so that they can be moved sideways off the rigging and lifted clear to allow the removal of the rigging. I hope the pictures make this clearer than my words but if not, please ask for a better explanation and I'll see what I can do, or alternatively, take a few photos to show exactly what I mean.

IMGP0569.JPG


IMGP0570.JPG


After all this activity, the whole ensemble had a nice relaxing dip in the ultra-sonic cleaning bath. Next up are the buffers and coupling hook and then, unless I'm mistaken, its back to the body.

At this point, your advice is sought. I still have a wobbly wheel problem and I have to admit to having a bit of a blind spot when it comes to mounting Gibson bogie, pony and tender wheels. I manage to induce a wobble far too often for my liking. My thoughts are turning towards chamfering the axle edges, something I haven't done as yet, and then mounting the wheels in the lathe, but if anyone has a simpler method, do please let me know.
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Will L
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Re: From a Loco Works in Norfolk

Postby Will L » Tue May 19, 2015 11:15 pm

On loco wheels, a slight chamfer on the axle ends, and a GW wheel press used with a BtoB gauge between the wheels works for me.
csb W&M 4.jpg
csb W&M 4.jpg (248.09 KiB) Viewed 8533 times

Picture is a funny colour and is complicated by the presence of the gearbox but I think it shows what I mean. I use figure pressure to close it up but the meticulous could use a vice.

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Re: From a Loco Works in Norfolk

Postby Mark Tatlow » Wed May 20, 2015 8:24 am

I agree with Will and would emphasise the need to slightly chamfer the end of the axle.

If you don't, the sharp edge of the end of the axle damages the inside of the boss to the wheel and you need to revisit Colin Seymour to get another one!
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Re: From a Loco Works in Norfolk

Postby grovenor-2685 » Wed May 20, 2015 8:34 am

I did the chamfering bit as well, but since I was mounting each wheel on an Exactoscale stub axle I was able to use the drill press to mount each one, making sure the wheel was supported on its rim, not by the boss.
When using solid axles I normally fit the first wheel in the drill press then use the GW press for the second one, that way I don't need to bother setting up the press for 2mm axles.
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Lord Colnago
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Re: From a Loco Works in Norfolk

Postby Lord Colnago » Fri May 22, 2015 5:34 pm

Thanks Gents,

I think I'll chamfer the ends of the 2mm part of the conversion axle, mount the axle in the lathe headstock with the wheel in the tailstock and keep my fingers crossed as I bring them together.
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Re: From a Loco Works in Norfolk

Postby Lord Colnago » Sat May 30, 2015 5:42 pm

In the last couple of nights, I seem to have raced ahead with the body but, before looking at that, I have completed the work on the frames. The picture below shows the rockers and associated castings as well as the axle box and spring castings all fitted. One of the latter was slightly mis-cast. One of the connecting arms between the end of the spring and the rocker had cast short. Rather than send it back, it was a simple matter to cut it away, slot the end of the spring and replace the connecting arm with a short piece of square section brass, thinned down to fit. You can see it on the left hand side of the right hand spring.

IMGP0573.JPG


The rockers should be mounted on 0.9mm brass rod and I felt it would be easier to run a rod through from one side of the frames to the other. This may well be what the instructions intend but it wasn't clear and it seemed an obvious way to ensure alignment. You can get a better idea of what I'm on about from the photo below.

IMGP0575.JPG


So, that's the frames pretty much over with for now. I added the overlays for the tank top and rear plus the bunker sides and ends. There is some filing flush to be done and you need to be sure that the solder has taken well along all the edges before you do this. Things can get a little messy but it all ends up nice and tidy and that's the main thing. In the photo below, you can see the angle bracing, which is a little tricky to fit. I held each one in a pair of self-closing tweezers and tack-soldered the tops of each in place. Once done, I held the base of each in ordinary tweezers and ran solder down the full length. You can also see that the sloping section at the rear of the bunker is slightly bent. This was my own fault for soldering it in place too early. As a consequence, it suffered from a bit of injudicious handling. I should have fitted the bracing first but there you are. Too late to do anything about it now. It doesn't matter in any case, as the coal will eventually hide it.

IMGP0577.JPG


The next photo shows the underside bracing and the associated rivet overlays. Nothing special to fitting these but you must avoid getting any solder on the inside faces. These are fitted with the frames in place to ensure correct alignment and as you will need to remove the body afterwards, any stray solder is going to cause problems.

IMGP0579.JPG


Finally for now, here is a photo of the frames and body temporarily placed together. Its nice to put everything together after a session as I find it gives an indication of progress and keeps the enthusiasm levels up. Next up will be the bits and pieces needed to complete the front end. I may have to carry out a slight modification here to allow for the tender drive shaft but, if I'm reading the instructions correctly, these should be fairly minor.

IMGP0580.JPG
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Lord Colnago
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Re: From a Loco Works in Norfolk

Postby Lord Colnago » Sun May 31, 2015 1:47 pm

I still have wobbly wheel problems. I've just managed to induce yet another wobble into a set and am getting rather fed up with it. At this rate, I'll get through Gibson's entire stock soon! I should emphasize that I'm referring to tender wheels here not drivers. Can I make another appeal to anyone who can pass on a fool proof method of mounting Gibson tender wheels to please do so. You will have my undying gratitude.

I am getting so frustrated with this that the thought has occurred to me that filling in the holes on some Exactoscale 3 hole disc wagon wheels might be the way to go. They are only a scale half inch smaller and I'm sure that nothing would give it away on the tender. It may well be that I don't even have to fill the holes for those on the tender. The loco bogie however is an entirely different matter!
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Lord Colnago
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Re: From a Loco Works in Norfolk

Postby Lord Colnago » Sun May 31, 2015 2:30 pm

Oh dear, WDs do, of course, have pony wheels not bogie wheels. I have enough trouble mounting wheels without looking for another set!
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Andy W
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Re: From a Loco Works in Norfolk

Postby Andy W » Sun May 31, 2015 6:27 pm

My lord, are you using a GW press? If so do you know that the spigots can be reversed for 2mm axles? That should sort your wobble problem.
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Re: From a Loco Works in Norfolk

Postby Lord Colnago » Sun May 31, 2015 6:42 pm

Hi Andy,

I do have a GW press but the problem lies in the fact that I'm using parallel axles which have 1mm ends that protrude approximately 2mm each side of the wheelset. These ends would push the stub axles back on the GW press either before the 2mm section on the axle reached the wheel or when insufficient 2mm section was in contact with the wheel. Without a crankpin to steady the wheel a bit I think I would just end up in the same boat I'm in now. Thanks for taking the trouble to reply.
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Re: From a Loco Works in Norfolk

Postby Andy W » Sun May 31, 2015 7:36 pm

You can recess the stubs? I'm sure you know this though.
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Re: From a Loco Works in Norfolk

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sun May 31, 2015 8:56 pm

I do have a GW press but the problem lies in the fact that I'm using parallel axles which have 1mm ends that protrude approximately 2mm each side of the wheelset.

Not for the Pony truck surely, they are inside bearing trucks.
For the tender I recommend fitting the wheels to their individual tubular stub axles, then adding the 1mm axle afterwards, seems to have worked for me.
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Keith
PS You are pulling ahead now :)
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Keith
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Re: From a Loco Works in Norfolk

Postby Lord Colnago » Sun May 31, 2015 10:04 pm

Andy W wrote:You can recess the stubs? I'm sure you know this though.


Yes Andy, you're right, I do know.

grovenor-2685 wrote:
I do have a GW press but the problem lies in the fact that I'm using parallel axles which have 1mm ends that protrude approximately 2mm each side of the wheelset.

Not for the Pony truck surely, they are inside bearing trucks.
For the tender I recommend fitting the wheels to their individual tubular stub axles, then adding the 1mm axle afterwards, seems to have worked for me.
Regards
Keith
PS You are pulling ahead now :)


Hi Keith,

Yes, the pony wheels are inside bearing, I was thinking of the difference in fitting them as opposed to the outside bearing ones in the tender. Your idea of mounting the wheels on the stub axles first did occur to me this evening. I'll give it a try. Have to get some new wheels first so you can overtake me again!
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Re: From a Loco Works in Norfolk

Postby Philip Hall » Sun May 31, 2015 10:40 pm

John,

I have had the occasional wobbly wheel problem with Gibson leading and trailing wheelsets, tender wheels more than leading.

Firstly, I am going to be mildly heretical by suggesting that, in my experience, it doesn't matter if the leading or bogie wheelsets wobble a little (within B-B tolerances of course) as they usually won't affect the ride of the engine. Ditto (usually) the inner wheelsets of a tender. However, I appreciate that a fully sprung engine and tender may be different.

Secondly, I have found that a wobble often goes with eccentricity, not much, but as I am often dealing with a rigid chassis from a RTR conversion, it's even more important that they should be truly round. If I do have to perform a bit of correction, by skimming the plastic centre and facing and chamfering the front edge of the centre on the lathe, then gluing the tyre back on, the wheel, with or without a press, usually goes on pretty well plumb every time. My practice now is to check every wheel, sort out which from a set HAS to be bang on the money (often the centre drivers don't have to be so long as there is a little upward movement) and go on from there. It does take a little while but the appearance of an engine as it glides along without a shimmer or a shake is worth the effort.

Hope this helps.

Philip

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Will L
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Re: From a Loco Works in Norfolk

Postby Will L » Mon Jun 01, 2015 8:00 am

Philip Hall wrote:...I am going to be mildly heretical by suggesting that, in my experience, it doesn't matter if the leading or bogie wheelsets wobble a little (within B-B tolerances of course) as they usually won't affect the ride of the engine. Ditto (usually) the inner wheelsets of a tender. However, I appreciate that a fully sprung engine and tender may be different....


I'm with Philip and I would have thought a sprung chassis would be, if anything, a little more tolerant.

Will


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