Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

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Lord Colnago
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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby Lord Colnago » Sun Dec 07, 2014 2:06 pm

Hi Justin,

That is the only relevant book on my shelves that I didn't check out! I have now removed the tare transfer and will have to do a bit of patching up on the paintwork and replace it in the right place, but thats not a problem. I suppose I'll have to move the 13T transfer as well, now that you've told me about it! Glad you like the method of fitting the brake lever guards. As for colour, I think Noel has answered that one with his comments regarding post 64 livery and lettering, so the livery style is fine, albeit that the lettering needs a bit of shifting around.

Once its all done I'll post a photo.
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iak
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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby iak » Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:14 pm

Excellent and fascinating stuff. :thumb
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Lord Colnago
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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby Lord Colnago » Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:53 pm

Many thanks Ian, I try to please. Sadly however, I seem to have lost my ability to read. It is, of course, the 12T transfer I will have to move, not the non-existent 13T one. Still, what's a ton or two between friends?
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Lord Colnago
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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby Lord Colnago » Sat Jan 03, 2015 7:07 pm

I have finally finished the Vanwide and a couple of pictures are attached. Also sneaking into view in them is another BR clasp brake van, which I built along with the Vanwide. I did learn an unfortunate lesson during one of those "one step forward, two steps back" modelling sessions that, I'm sure, we all have from time to time. The lesson stemmed from my use of Exactoscale wheels, which are, to my mind, the best, but they are also delicate and care is needed in handling them. I don't think it would apply with other wheel types.

Justin's chassis are, of course, extremely accurate and with the clasp brake chassis the brake shoes are very close to the wheels indeed. When inserting one set of wheels, I had to "persuade" them into position and this created a wobble that I was unable to cure so into the bin it had to go. The shoes can, of course, be adjusted once the wheels are in to provide free running but this still leaves the possibility open of another ruined wheelset or two. Having given it some thought, I will, in future, place an unassembled wheel into the gap between the brake shoes as I construct them and adjust the shoe positions before going any further. I hope that's clear but, if not, don't be shy! I'm not sure when I will build the next clasp brake chassis but, rest assured, if this solution doesn't work or is modified in any way, I will let you know.

Thought now turn towards something to pull these little devils around the track and hence there is the liklihood of another thread starting soon. Just need a snappy title.

IMGP0338.JPG


IMGP0340.JPG
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Lord Colnago
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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby Lord Colnago » Mon Feb 09, 2015 9:46 pm

Just a quick posting this time. One of the problems with not being able to make your mind up about which period to model is that by the time you do, you find that you have a number of vehicles in need of a re-paint. Below is one such, (fear not, there have been many more) shown in its original finish and then as it has now ended up.

IMAG0086.jpg


Originally intended to be one of the parcels fleet, here it is posed in front of the 30% Off All Purpose Filler building. A well known local landmark!


IMGP0349.JPG


In its new 1960-65 guise, ready to deliver fresh fish to those hungry cockneys down in the docks. I must try and get those brake shoes closer to the wheels. Something I can do when adding its new JSW-style magnetic vacuum pipes.
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Lord Colnago
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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby Lord Colnago » Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:09 pm

I found myself in need of two more wagons in order to complete my sand train. As this rake has a real mix of wagon types, I thought a couple of steel minerals might well fit the bill, especially as they would be quicker to build than any fitted type. I found a couple of likely prototypes in my book collection. One is an independent braked P.O. wagon, built by the LMS and, as far as I can see, indistinguishable from those built at the time for their own use and the other a simple two shoe Morton braked 1/108 BR wagon. I thought the P.O. might provide an interesting alternative to the diet of 108s I've built thus far.

Both have Parkside bodies, Rumney chassis (B.13 and B.16), Exactoscale disc wheels in parallel bearings and Lanarkshire sprung buffers with Exactoscale buffer heads. I thought it might be an interesting exercise to include a floor, which does show as a thin edge above the solebars. I used 5 thou plasticard for these. It was, I think, worth the fun and games required to get it right, so I suppose I'll have to do it on every appropriate wagon from now on. Apart from that, the body and chassis builds were as straightforward as you might expect. The only other unusual item, which might or might not interest, is that I cut the buffer springs in half and elongated them very slightly. Just enough to give a very soft action. I used to be averse to using sprung buffers as I found their action far too hard and the sight of wagons bouncing backwards and forwards off each other never exactly thrilled me! Cutting them in half (the springs, not the wagons!) and lengthening them is a bit of a pain, but for me, its worth the effort.

I also decided that I would weather both wagons exclusively with the use of weathering powders, MIG in this case. I'm not sure if it works or not, but no doubt you'll tell me. I weathered inside each wagon, not something I've made a habit of in the past, although I'm not sure why not. You can't see it, but they are weathered underneath as well. Don't worry, in my own little world, I can see it.

Anyway, enough chat, here they are.

IMGP0396.JPG


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IMGP0418.JPG


Alas, having started both wagons, I made the mistake of looking at the rake of wagons for my sand train. It dawned on me that what I really needed was one unfitted and one fitted wagon. No matter, I have the fitted wagon almost completed and I will update in due course. It has upright vacuum pipes and I think I've cracked how to make them up for use with my hanging types, detailed elsewhere in this thread. I'll update on that at the same time. As I've said before, using these means that the wagons are "handed". If they weren't, I wouldn't have had to build another one! Its a hard life but at least I have another wagon to add to one of the coal rakes.
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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby Terry Bendall » Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:14 am

Lord Colnago wrote: It dawned on me that what I really needed was one unfitted and one fitted wagon


Then of course John you will need the correct brake vans for an unfitted freight, normally I think one at each end of the train, and the correct tail lamps on the van at the rear. :)

And these look very nice.

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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby Noel » Thu Mar 05, 2015 12:29 pm

Lord Colnago wrote:One is an independent braked P.O. wagon, built by the LMS and, as far as I can see, indistinguishable from those built at the time for their own use and the other a simple two shoe Morton braked 1/108 BR wagon. I thought the P.O. might provide an interesting alternative to the diet of 108s I've built thus far.


So far as I know, none of the grouped railways built any stock for anyone else, other than each other; I think they may have been legally prevented from doing so, but am not sure. If it is in original condition, this wagon would have been built by one of the private manufacturers before nationalisation, probably using the MOT design based on the LMS one, apart from the absence of bottom doors, which would have been very unusual at that time. David Larkin's "Pre-Nationalisation Freight Wagons on British Railways" shows another of very similar appearance, P312174.

However, according to Peter Fidczuk, who used the same photograph of P312174 in an article in Modellers' Backtrack in 1991, it had been built with a slope-sided body, which had been completely replaced by the time it was photographed in 1969. The new body has top doors, and is in 1962 [or 1964] 'boxed' livery, branded 'Mineral' rather than the usual 'Coal 16', suggesting the rebuild was possibly done in the early- to mid-1960s, well before the general rebodying programme began.

Peter Fidczuk also indicates that the wagons used for sand traffic were branded "Sand" and carried "Return to ..." markings.

On the weathering may I suggest that there is not enough rust, especially on the outside, and possibly too much coal dust? Mineral wagons were often relatively clean outside (rain washing the dust off, possibly?), at least where the paint was still present, and sand traffic wagons would not, presumably, have been used for coal, due to the resulting contamination (hence the branding mentioned above). Depending on how long it had been present, rust varied from bright orange, through mid-brown to a dark brown similar to the later BR brown to virtually black. BR policy called for repainting every 5 years until 1962, when it was extended to every 7 years, so the worst excesses of the late 1960s would not often have been seen, but I would suggest that the rust would have been visually more prominent, relative to the light grey background. If you have colour photographs of the right era these can often provide useful information; no two minerals ever seem to have the same pattern of rusting.

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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby Will L » Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:46 pm

Noel wrote:
Lord Colnago wrote:One is an independent braked P.O. wagon, built by the LMS and, as far as I can see, indistinguishable from those built at the time for their own use and the other a simple two shoe Morton braked 1/108 BR wagon. I thought the P.O. might provide an interesting alternative to the diet of 108s I've built thus far.


So far as I know, none of the grouped railways built any stock for anyone else, other than each other; I think they may have been legally prevented from doing so, but am not sure.


I think Lord Colnago is right to say they Company and PO wagons were built by the same builders, but has the story the wrong way round. Mineral wagons were built to RCH (railway clearing house) diagrams not company diagrams post 1st world war, and were often built for by the big railway companies by the likes of the Gloucester Railway Carriage and Wagon Co. who built the same things for private owners. And that is why it can be hard to see the difference between an absorbed PO wagon and a company wagon. (see Essery LMS wagons Vol 1 plates 190 191 and 194, Tatlow LNER wagons (orginal single volume version)plates 103/104)

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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby Noel » Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:34 pm

A relatively small number of steel minerals were built before the war by the trade for private owners, plus a few during the war. All were swept up into the wartime pool and never returned to their owners. The great majority of pre-nationalisation steel minerals were built for the MoWT/MWT, all by the trade. Post-war the LNER rivetted minerals were built entirely by the trade, but the welded LMS version was built by the LMS itself. Those MWT orders which were built post-war were partly produced by the trade and partly by some of the Royal Ordinance Factories, to provide them with work. BR ones were all built by the trade, apart from a few lots from Derby and Shildon on three diagrams specific to those orders (including the aluminium ones).

Pre-war wagons were to various manufacturers designs; wartime ones to MoWT designs derived from some of these. The LMS and BR designs were further developments of these. I expect the RCH were involved, but do not know whether they ever issued formal specifications for 16T minerals.

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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby Will L » Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:30 pm

Wops sorry I'd forgotten we were talking metal bodies, not what comes to mind when you think private owner. I'm not sure about the RCH involvement at that stage either. The wagon builders stared doing metal bodies from about 1930 but the MoT design standard normal spoken of originated during the war. But the basic principle still applies. i.e. both PO and Company wagons were coming from the same 3rd party wagon builders.

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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby Lord Colnago » Thu Mar 05, 2015 8:04 pm

Terry said,

Then of course John you will need the correct brake vans for an unfitted freight, normally I think one at each end of the train, and the correct tail lamps on the van at the rear. :)

An interesting thought Terry. My rake is partially fitted, although without checking, I'm not sure how many vehicles are fitted ones, which might make a difference to the class of train, I'm not sure. Of course, I assume it would only be partially fitted in one direction, I can't see the fitted vehicles being shunted onto the front for a short trip working such as the one I plan. Photographic evidence would suggest that fitted heads were not always made up in yards. Would I need two brake vans though? Not that I mind building them, of course.

Thanks for the prototype information, Noel, interesting stuff.

Noel wrote:Peter Fidczuk also indicates that the wagons used for sand traffic were branded "Sand" and carried "Return to ..." markings.


I have some photos of former Iron Ore hoppers in sand traffic which are clearly marked "Sand" but I can't see any "Return to..." markings on any of them. Having said that, they're not in good condition and any such marking may well have been obscured by rust. I also have some showing BR/LNER steel highfits, which appear to be carrying sand, but have no markings apart from the usual ones. Wagons built for the express purpose of hauling sand about did, of course, have both markings. I love the variety in wagons, you can't beat it!

Noel wrote:On the weathering may I suggest that there is not enough rust, especially on the outside, and possibly too much coal dust?


Blimey, I thought I overdid it with the rust! I used the Dave Larkin photo that you referred to as a guide, although one can never be exact with these things unless you're particularly talented, and I'm not. That's the main reason I base my wagons on photographs but give them a different number from the one shown.I may give the outsides a dusting of rust to lighten them up a bit but I will definitely take your advice regarding the insides. I'll post some more photos when they're done.
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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby Noel » Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:50 am

If your train is a trip working to the nearest yard it would almost certainly have been a Class 9, completely unfitted, whatever its constituent vehicles were, for the reason you give. I don't think two vans would have been needed; one was the norm, and if the train was reversing somewhere it would not have been much of a problem to put the van on the other end or even propel the train in some circumstances.

On the rust, if your ex-PO wagon is a rebuild as with the one in Larkin, then it would have been virtually new in the mid-1960s, I think. The rebuild is the most likely scenario as top flap doors did not appear until after WW2. The BR one, having been built in 1951, would probably be in a poor condition and in need of partial replating, which was considered as being necessary somewhere between 10 and 15 years, or just out of works having been replated.

Some time ago, I asked elsewhere about the painting of the insides of steel minerals in BR days, and got a considerable number of different answers. One suggestion was that Corten steel was used [a brand of alloy steel intended for things such as outdoor building cladding. It weathers to a brown shade but is more corrosion resistant than mild steel. Painting it spoils this property and American experiments with it for rolling stock were apparently not successful.] Others were body colour [true of the LMS & LNER apparently], no paint at all, just bare metal [!] and black paint. I still don't know the answer, although my guess is that BR probably used bituminous black paint. Certainly the rusting pattern inside is different to the outside and even newish wagons are much darker inside than out.

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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby DougN » Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:10 pm

Noel total aside on the Corten. It is the main steel in shipping containers due to the less flaking of rust once the paint breaks down/ is scraped away. It is used on buildings as the steel when it rusts has less tendency to flake off. It is more crystalline in structure. I have priced to use it at work a large number of times but only used it once or twice. I must admit it is not one of my liked architectural features. Oh there is usually a note on the shipping container that only Corten steel is to be used in any repair. Usually near the LCL plate on the door.
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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby Crepello » Sat Mar 07, 2015 10:52 am

A less total aside on Corten: The 'cor' and the 'ten' were derived from its superior corrosion resistance and higher tensile strength.

The manufacturing drawings for the production EE Type 5 specify this material for the superstructure framing and panelling, probably in the quest for weight savings. It eventually corroded in this application, and some locos have been re-plated with mild steel of heavier gauge to compensate for the new material's lower tensile strength.

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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby Ian Everett » Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:06 am

Noel wrote:A relatively small number of steel minerals were built before the war by the trade for private owners, plus a few during the war. All were swept up into the wartime pool and never returned to their owners. Noel


Slightly OTT - One of the few things I can remember about my grandfather, Cecil Everett, was his continuing anger about the government "stealing" his coal wagons. He even kept a photo of them in his wallet, as of a lost lover. I was very young so I remember no more detail, except that they would have been labelled "Everett and Shepherd" and were based in Suffolk - I believe at Westerfield Junction. I've never found any more detail about them.

Anyone?..

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Lord Colnago
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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby Lord Colnago » Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:43 pm

In a quiet moment whilst manning the Society stand at the Leamington show last Sunday, I got to musing on how to solve some of the various annoying little problems we occasionally come across in our modelling. In an unguarded moment one of the thoughts flying around the cavern made contact with a brain cell and I thought it might be worth trying.

Have you ever found yourself with a wobbly wheel after fitting an Exactoscale wagon wheelset? I'm afraid I have and the answer in the past was to condemn said wheelset and file it under B. For some reason, I kept a pair of axles, one of which was fine but the other had a wobble on one wheel. It occured to me that if I mounted the wobbly wheelset in the Exactoscale back to back gauge and heated the offending wheel with a hair dryer, it might straighten it out in much the same way as a warped resin wagon body can be trued up. I gave it a go, holding the hair dryer approx. 4" away from the wheel and put it on a hot setting for between 10 and 15 seconds. Don't touch anything and leave the wheelset to cool completely. When it has, remove it from the gauge and give it a roll. The wobble should have disappeared. As I'm not given to flashes of inspiration such as this, I have checked this wheelset every 24 hours since I did it and it is still straight.

I hope this works for you and, given the price of the wheels, its certainly worth a try in any case. What have you got to lose? Perhaps its worth mentioning that the wheels in question were disc wheels, but as long as the wheel only has a wobble and the spokes aren't bent, I can't see why the technique wouldn't work on spoked wheels.

Hope this helps.
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Lord Colnago
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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby Lord Colnago » Sat Mar 21, 2015 5:51 pm

Noel wrote:On the weathering may I suggest that there is not enough rust, especially on the outside


Lord Colnago wrote:I may give the outsides a dusting of rust to lighten them up a bit but I will definitely take your advice regarding the insides. I'll post some more photos when they're done.


A couple of photos of the mineral referred to above. In the end, I didn't do anything to the outside but I did put some lighter rust colour inside as well as some sand colour, which did lighten things up just a little more.

IMGP0543.JPG


Sadly, the fingerprint demon has been at work, as you can see, so a little work will be required to remove it.

IMGP0544.JPG
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Lord Colnago
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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby Lord Colnago » Fri Aug 07, 2015 5:48 pm

Having completed the tender for my WD 2-8-0, I realised that I had a few un-completed jobs on the workbench. They were all pretty well advanced so, by way of a change, I decided to finish them off before starting on the loco itself.

It would be a cold day in hell if I didn't have a wagon of some sort on the go at any one time and I had the chassis and almost completed body for a LMS Derby clasp brake 5 plank with corrugated ends. I have covered some of the chassis build already. I had to make a few changes as the Parkside body is for the BR version. The side strapping on the LMS version does not go below the level of the bottom plank. This means that the strapping on the body must be removed and replaced by brass strip. That nice Mr. Newitt just happened to have a little etch handy to cover this strapping and the capping strips so that saved me some time. I don't think Justin has made the etch available so please don't pester him. If I'm wrong, it will be mentioned somewhere on his website. Anyway, these straps and capping strips were fitted, as were two strips along the top of the ends. These overlap the insides on the LMS wagon and overlap the outside on the BR ones. There are some brackets on the end mouldings which, if I recall, relate to a tarpaulin bar, if fitted. I didn't want to fit a bar and carefully removed it and tidied it all up with a spot of filler. I don't think I did anything else but a couple of photos are attached below so that you can see for yourselves.

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Some time ago, when I explained how I make "connecting" vacuum pipes, I promised to re-visit the topic once I had worked out how to make the upright type. As you can see from the above photos, I have managed to make one up and get it to "work". The pipe itself is just a length of 0.9mm brass wire, bent to shape. A short piece of thin walled tube with a 1.00mm inside diameter is soldered to the point where the hose is attached on the prototype. At this point, I tried the 1.00mm elastic thread in the tube and found that I had to open it up a little. Not an easy job as the drill can't go in very far at all, but I got there. The pipe was then fitted to the wagon and forgotten about until after the paint job. I then found that I had to clear the inside of the tube again and, whilst the pipe fits, its a tight fit.

This next photo, whilst a bit blurry, does show the pipe fitted to the wagon and should give you a better idea of its construction, but if there is anything that you are not clear about, please do ask.

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This one shows the pipe "connected".

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A better view from above.

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Finally, an view of the pipe at the other end. This was made the same way as for the "working" one. The hose is 1.00mm elastic thread, glued into the tube and the other end is glued to a spare etched fitting that Justin supplies for such things in some of his other chassis kits. I doubt that he thought some idiot would actually fit a pipe to one! Very tricky to solder to the upright pipe. Something of an understatement!

IMGP0635.JPG


That's it for now. I will update on the other unfinished jobs as soon as they're done. Suffice it to say, they're not wagons.
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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby Lord Colnago » Sun Feb 07, 2016 6:35 pm

Having been asked to demonstrate wagon building at the 101 not out event, it occurred to me that I really ought to have a few examples of part-built or almost complete wagons that would illustrate various aspects of the art. This meant getting down to some serious wagon building and my WD has had to take a back seat for a while.

I have now taken the build of these wagons as far as I want to for now and a few photos are attached below, along with a few explanatory notes, in order to whet the appetite. They may appear complete or almost so, but some can be stripped to their component parts to better illustrate things at the event. Anyway, here they are and if you want to see more, do come along to the event and have a chat.

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This is one of those Cambrian LNER/SR open bodies. I shall finish it as an SR wagon. The chassis is a Rumney Models one.

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This is a Bill Bedford Conflat L and is one of those projects that disappeared when I moved (eight years ago!) and was recently uncovered. I have lost some of the etch, particularly the securing chains for the containers, but I'll get around it with some Ambis etches when the time comes.

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This is one of Dave Bradwell's Single Bolster wagons. Went together really well, as one might expect. I made a bit of a hash of the bolster but I know what to do right next time!

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A Ratio GW Van with a Masokits sub frame. I managed to build the brake gear in such a way that if the lever had been operated, the brakes would have come off! That's actually quite a difficult thing to do with a Masokits sub frame and I can't work out how I did it but, as you can see, its sorted now.

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This is an old 3H kit of an LMS open that I've had hanging around for a very long time. It has a Craig Welsh chassis, the first I've built, which I quite enjoyed knocking up.

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This is another Ratio van, this time on a Rumney Models chassis. I made a couple of additions to this to get a slightly different van. It now has three part corrugated ends and additional diagonal strapping.

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I'm quite pleased with this one. I was lucky enough to receive a test etch from Justin at Rumney models for a wooden ended open fitted with steel channels, as some wagons were by way of repair after suffering damage to their ends. The only parts of the Parkside body used were the sides, and these have all the details, bar that around the doors, removed. The chassis is also a Rumney Models one. I believe the body kit will be available at Scalefour North. Another good reason to go! Given the nature of the brake gear, its difficult to get the necessary weight into the wagon without it showing. I didn't want it to show in this case, hence the container, which contains the lead weight.

As I said, these wagons are in various stages of completion but should illustrate the differing methods used in their construction quite well. I will post again upon completion and supply a few more details, such as Diagram numbers, further information on the components used and a photo or two.
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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby iak » Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:55 pm

Trés tasty sir.
The new Newitt bits look most appetising B-)
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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby jjnewitt » Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:54 am

I'd be really quite pleased with the last one as well! It's turned out rather nicely. There's something quite fun about the 5 plank opens with the LMS clasp brake chassis. I must have a go at one of the steel channel ended opens for myself at some point. They didn't seem to be that common on the LMS opens but now I'm paying attention I do see the odd one cropping up here and there in photos. I will look forward to seeing it, and the others, at the 101 event next month.

I must get a couple of those Bradwell single bolsters at some point. They do look very good.

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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby Andrew Ullyott » Fri Feb 12, 2016 10:58 pm

That's a very nice collection of wagons John.
I wish I hadn't seen the 'steel ended' open though. Now I want one.
I already have three Rumney chassis to do...

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Lord Colnago
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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby Lord Colnago » Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:39 pm

Last time I was here, I posted pictures of some of the wagons that I had been preparing for the 101 not out event. I thought it best to get on and finish them off and here is the first of them. I started this Conflat L more years ago than I care to remember and it suffered the fate of being buried and forgotten until I found it again, just in time for the event. I thought that I owed it to it to finish it off first. There is quite a lot of work involved in doing so, each container has 10 transfers and I had to knock up 12 securing chains. All good fun, but I got there in the end. Anyway, here it is, for what its worth.

20160409_125048.jpg


20160409_125134.jpg
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Re: Goings on at the Norfolk Wagonarium

Postby jjnewitt » Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:49 pm

That looks very nice John. The securing chains must have taken a while! They found an interesting position to put the number plate.

Has the LMS wooden ended open with steel channel seen any paint yet? I'm really looking forward to seeing it finished.

Justin


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