Wagon floors... Wagon sides... Bare Wood... Worn wood or what?

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iak
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Wagon floors... Wagon sides... Bare Wood... Worn wood or what?

Postby iak » Fri May 16, 2014 11:45 am

Wagon floors and insides, a subject I seem to have a fascination with. Why is beyond me but if ones stock is going to run unloaded, then what is on the inside is as significant as the outside... :thumb

Image

Image

These two illustrate what I am driving at. A wee bit more gentle attention is needed to finish them off but I hope one can see the direction they are headed.
I use the LifColor Weathered Wood set of acrylics mainly to get these results together with small amounts of Vallejo acrylics. A dash of Flow Improver [Winsor & Newton] helps as it doesn't over thin the paint but allows it to be worked a wee better.
Once the paint dries and one is happy with the results, its time for the washes. At present, the experiments with AK Interactive washes seem successful; mind, I do have more to play with so stay tuned.
Last edited by iak on Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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jayell
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Re: Wagon floors... Worn,Corroded or What?

Postby jayell » Fri May 16, 2014 2:48 pm

iak wrote:Wagon floors and insides, a subject I seem to have a fascination with. Why is beyond me but if ones stock is going to run unloaded, then what is on the inside is as significant as the outside...

These two illustrate what I am driving at. A wee bit more gentle attention is needed to finish them off but I hope one can see the direction they are headed.
I use the LifColor Weathered Wood set of acrylics mainly to get these results together with small amounts of Vallejo acrylics. A dash of Flow Improver [Winsor & Newton] helps as it doesn't over thin the paint but allows it to be worked a wee better.
Once the paint dries and one is happy with the results, its time for the washes. At present, the experiments with AK Interactive washes seem successful; mind, I do have more to play with so stay tuned.


Thanks for those pictures and more thanks for the details of what paints you are using. I now know what next month's allocation of 'pocket money' will be spent on :D

John Lewis

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HowardGWR
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Re: Wagon floors... Worn,Corroded or What?

Postby HowardGWR » Fri May 16, 2014 6:36 pm

Ian

Very impressive.

I assume the material you painted was actual wood?

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iak
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Re: Wagon floors... Worn,Corroded or What?

Postby iak » Fri May 16, 2014 9:28 pm

HowardGWR wrote:Ian

Very impressive.

I assume the material you painted was actual wood?


Nope.
It's actually Evergreen embossed plastic card. The planking is already done for you. The effect is achieved through the paint/wash process.
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beachboy
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Re: Wagon floors... Worn,Corroded or What?

Postby beachboy » Sat May 17, 2014 7:45 am

Hi Iak,

I liked your first pic of natural exposed wood. Particularly the central three planks being as a swept floor, and to the left as a worn, or stressed damage - although one would expect that near the loading doors perhaps, unless the load was badly ' craned ' into the wagon.

The second pic looks ( to me ), over saturated with colour washes, and the timber joins over-killed.

Some washes dry as a glaze, which need matting for bare wood.
You can achieve similar effects by simply very diluted harmonized paint colours, with patience and good light. Bearing in mind the flow of the wood grain.
I always think in 4mm, where possible to keep weathering to a light & simple blend of a few colours.

Rgds, Steve.

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jayell
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Re: Wagon floors... Worn,Corroded or What?

Postby jayell » Sat May 17, 2014 8:15 am

iak wrote:It's actually Evergreen embossed plastic card. The planking is already done for you. The effect is achieved through the paint/wash process.


which particular bit of evergreen sheeting please, as they do a wide range of 'planking'

John

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Lord Colnago
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Re: Wagon floors... Worn,Corroded or What?

Postby Lord Colnago » Sat May 17, 2014 11:59 am

Hi Ian,

Very nice indeed. Couldn't agree more with your comments on empty wagons. I find wood an especially tricky proposition and weathered wood even more so, but it has to be done. More power to your elbow!

John.
The second best priest

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Guy Rixon
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Re: Wagon floors... Worn,Corroded or What?

Postby Guy Rixon » Sat May 17, 2014 12:35 pm

Very good indeed. I especially like the scuffed appearance in the drop-sided wagon. I can just imagine loads being dragged out across those planks.

Are the special paints easy to get in the UK?

dal-t
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Re: Wagon floors... Worn,Corroded or What?

Postby dal-t » Sat May 17, 2014 2:41 pm

Both Lifecolor and Vallejo paints are now readily available in the UK from a variety of suppliers, including the major airbrush distributors. The problem is, as Derek Russan pointed out in the May edition of Eileen's newsletter, the weathering sets (six pots of paint) can't legally be sent by post, because for reasons known only to themselves Royal Mail have banned them - so you either have to pay courier prices to have them delivered, or find someone selling them at a show. Fortunately, I don't have this problem in France, because La Poste has a slightly more mature attitude, simply insisting that they are properly packed.
David L-T

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iak
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Re: Wagon floors... Worn,Corroded or What?

Postby iak » Mon May 19, 2014 9:19 am

Thanks for the interest gents.

The washes I am using/experimenting with are:
AK Interactive Dark Wash For Wood Deck AK-301
AK Interactive Wood Weathering Set AK-260


I do agree that they do leave a glaze but once the pigments and such are applied and some gentle matting down that should ease.
As for the over-saturation effect on the second image? It is deliberate in that once I start some more work on it, it will ease - lots more crap to add in other words :D
More to come soon I hope...

Sláinte
Iain
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jim s-w
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Re: Wagon floors... Worn,Corroded or What?

Postby jim s-w » Mon May 19, 2014 9:32 am

beachboy wrote:Hi Iak,

I liked your first pic of natural exposed wood. Particularly the central three planks being as a swept floor, and to the left as a worn, or stressed damage - although one would expect that near the loading doors perhaps, unless the load was badly ' craned ' into the wagon.

The second pic looks ( to me ), over saturated with colour washes, and the timber joins over-killed.

Some washes dry as a glaze, which need matting for bare wood.
You can achieve similar effects by simply very diluted harmonized paint colours, with patience and good light. Bearing in mind the flow of the wood grain.
I always think in 4mm, where possible to keep weathering to a light & simple blend of a few colours.

Rgds, Steve.


I agree. The second one is too brown almost like teak. I much prefer the greyer effect in the first image.

Cheers

Jim

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iak
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Re: Wagon floors... Worn,Corroded or What?

Postby iak » Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:30 am

Some further work on those cruddy floors. This time, the weathering pigments have been added to produce some texture, in addition to the careful addition of more washes and such...

Image

Image

Image

The images could be better maybe but I think they convey the effect. :thumb
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Mike Garwood
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Re: Wagon floors... Worn,Corroded or What?

Postby Mike Garwood » Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:34 pm

Ian
I find your work completely convincing. How did you get the 'bubbled' rust effect on the sides? (in the second of the three photos). Most impressive.

Mike

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iak
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Re: Wagon floors... Worn,Corroded or What?

Postby iak » Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:19 pm

Gradually building up the pigment layers and very careful "fixing" of them.
I use various makes and they all have slightly different ways of behaving - Tamiya, Vallejo, MIG etc...
The trick is the use of some Tamiya paint thinners as a fixative, a tip I picked up from a book about weathering Allied Tanks :shock:
One very carefully dribbles it on, very much less is more.
Those military modeller types have some very useful techniques and dodges, its all about reading, learning and implementing.

Sláinte :thumb
Iain
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Colin Parks
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Re: Wagon floors... Worn,Corroded or What?

Postby Colin Parks » Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:35 pm

Hi Iak,

I have really enjoyed looing at your wagons and their various weathering treatments. For what my opinion is worth, I think the first photo of a fitted Medfit has a really convincing wood - effect floor. Just a thought or two: Would the sides of wooden-bodied wagons have been as weathered as their floors and just how much paint would be remaining on the inside faces of steel-bodied wagons after some years in service?

If all those wagons have transfers produced by your printer from your art work, then I am even more impressed: The time spent producing unique lettering and number sets for wagons (if you have the means) is surely less than the time spent trying to coax recalcitrant individual bits of transfer into place with points of cocktail sticks etc.!

All the best,

Colin

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iak
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Re: Wagon floors... Worn,Corroded or What?

Postby iak » Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:33 am

Colin Parks wrote:Hi Iak,

I have really enjoyed looing at your wagons and their various weathering treatments. For what my opinion is worth, I think the first photo of a fitted Medfit has a really convincing wood - effect floor. Just a thought or two: Would the sides of wooden-bodied wagons have been as weathered as their floors and just how much paint would be remaining on the inside faces of steel-bodied wagons after some years in service?

If all those wagons have transfers produced by your printer from your art work, then I am even more impressed: The time spent producing unique lettering and number sets for wagons (if you have the means) is surely less than the time spent trying to coax recalcitrant individual bits of transfer into place with points of cocktail sticks etc.!

All the best,

Colin


Thanks Colin
The insides of the wooden wagon sides would have been pretty battered I think. Only the outsides probably would have seen any paint of any form, if any in their later days. :thumb
As to the steel-bodied wagons? Again, highly probably they would not have seen any paint. The finish on these is something I need to muse on, this BR medfit has been given a very rusty finish on its sides deliberately but it is something I need to refine. :D

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Andy W
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Re: Wagon floors... Worn,Corroded or What?

Postby Andy W » Fri Jun 13, 2014 1:14 pm

Yes great work Iain, keep it up.
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Re: Wagon floors... Worn,Corroded or What?

Postby DaveHarris » Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:38 pm

I cant find a picture I have which illustrates the rusty condition of the inside of a steel wagon (grampus) but the one I saw at didcot had very rusty base and inner sides, much akin to a medium layer of rust all over which had been 'sanded', presumably by the loads it had carried.

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iak
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Re: Wagon floors... Worn,Corroded or What?

Postby iak » Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:07 pm

Now that sounds a familiar and logical deduction Dave.
Sort of what I was attempting to represent... :)
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it....

Perfection is impossible.
But I may choose to serve perfection....
Robert Fripp


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andrewnummelin
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Re: Wagon floors... Worn,Corroded or What?

Postby andrewnummelin » Sun Jun 15, 2014 11:50 am

An example, but the sides are clearer than the floor (with image adjusted to lighten the shadows using Photoshop elements.)
1770copy.jpg
1770copy.jpg (200.89 KiB) Viewed 6960 times
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Andrew Nummelin

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Noel
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Re: Wagon floors... Worn,Corroded or What?

Postby Noel » Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:13 pm

And this being a coal wagon, there is a difference in colour and texture between the areas where the load was regularly in contact with the sides and where it was not [wet coal is generally acidic, and this attacks the steel more than atmospheric corrosion does]. This was the reason why BR's replating of mineral wagons [as demonstrated by this wagon] involved the floors and various amounts of the sides, but commonly not the upper parts of the sides. Steel wagons used for other, less corrosive, traffics would not normally show this sort of effect, but in engineers' use would be more prone to mechanical damage.

Thanks for posting this interesting [to me anyway :D ] picture, Andrew.

Noel
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iak
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Re: Wagon floors... Worn,Corroded or What?

Postby iak » Sun Jun 15, 2014 3:09 pm

Now that is a fascinating image.
For sure engineering stock would be pretty bashed up but considering what they did and so on, corrosion would have been about and pretty badly at times I'll wager
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it....

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But I may choose to serve perfection....
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Noel
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Re: Wagon floors... Worn,Corroded or What?

Postby Noel » Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:03 am

iak wrote:For sure engineering stock would be pretty bashed up but considering what they did and so on, corrosion would have been about and pretty badly at times I'll wager


I agree entirely. I was just making the point that the pattern of internal corrosion, as shown in Andrew's picture, seems to be limited exclusively to wagons used for coal traffic, the accelerated corrosion on the lower areas of sides and end being due to the nature of the load.

Incidentally, it is also fairly time specific. Originally these wagons would have been descaled and repainted at five year intervals [at least that was what BR intended]. Replating would have taken place sometime in the early 1960s, since the expected body panel life was no more than 15 years. By then the repainting interval was 7 years [from 1962], although all routine repainting was abandoned later in the 1960s, apart from repairs. The vehicle has clearly been in service for several years after the replating, suggesting a photograph date in the late 1960s or possibly the early 1970s. Photographs from the 1950s, when repainting was officially still being carried out, usually show rather more paint and less visible rust, at least externally [the inside is rarely visible].

Noel
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andrewnummelin
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Re: Wagon floors... Worn,Corroded or What?

Postby andrewnummelin » Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:32 pm

Noel wrote:
iak wrote:... suggesting a photograph date in the late 1960s ...

The year and location is on the photo which was almost certainly taken in August or September. Further details (embedded in the file) are that the wagon was ex PO number P245914K registered GWR 1933 no 3689.
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Andrew Nummelin

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Noel
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Re: Wagon floors... Worn,Corroded or What?

Postby Noel » Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:50 am

Thanks for the confirmation of the wagon number, Andrew. I was making a point about the corrosion timeline; wagons were not normally seen in this condition before the late 1960s. My apologies if I wasn't altogether clear in what I was saying.

I don't know when BR started partially replating mineral wagons; photos I have seen suggest that the process for late 1920s GW 20T/21T wagons may have started by 1959. The other point is that I assumed that the wagon had been completely replated at some point around 1948-1950, presuming that 1930s built wagons corroded at a similar rate to 1950s built vehicles. This may not be true, particularly when iron or alloy steel was originally used rather than mild steel. However, the available evidence does seem to fit a cycle of more or less 15 years [actual figures vary quite a bit from wagon to wagon]; the alternative is that the original bodywork lasted about 30 years, including war service with limited maintenance, which seems less likely. If anybody knows one way or the other, I would be interested to know.

Noel
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