An Inglenook in P4

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steve howe
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Re: An Inglenook in P4

Postby steve howe » Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:41 pm

Noel,
The layout is only 4 feet long! so it unlikely to draw huge crowds. Horsley Bank is also only 4' long with a viewing slot of about 13" and stands 4' 3" high. When it went to Scaleforum the crowd was 6 deep and I couldn't actually get near it to operate!

This is an old chestnut that's been aired so many times before and I don't propose to add my views on the subject.

Steve

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Noel
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Re: An Inglenook in P4

Postby Noel » Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:29 am

I recently had the pleasure of operating on Allt-y-graban Road at Larkrail. It also uses a 'letterbox' presentation, but rather deeper than 9". From my point of view a layout at a good height for both operating and viewing in reasonable comfort. Others, however, might not agree with me on that.

steve howe wrote:The layout is only 4 feet long! so it unlikely to draw huge crowds. Horsley Bank is also only 4' long with a viewing slot of about 13" and stands 4' 3" high. When it went to Scaleforum the crowd was 6 deep and I couldn't actually get near it to operate!
I think that this makes my case very well - how many of those six deep could actually see anything? And how many were able to stand straight? Certainly at 4'3" [presumably to the bottom of the 'viewing slot?] plus 13" my eyeline, standing normally, would have been above the top of the slot. Reducing this to 9" would just exacerbate the problem.

As I said previously, what you build is your decision; I was asking what the organising team were proposing to do to make the layout as accessible as possible for as many as possible of their visitors so that they can actually see and appreciate the layout. If the modelling is good it will draw crowds whatever the size of the layout - that's a major reason why they are there - to see good modelling and try and learn something about how it was done.

I acknowledge that this is a perennial problem, and probably inherently unsolvable to everybody's satisfaction. This does not mean, however, that we should just shrug our collective shoulders and ignore what is for some people a very real problem, especially if it makes life difficult for most [all?] of the visitors.

Noel
Regards
Noel

Terry Bendall
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Re: An Inglenook in P4

Postby Terry Bendall » Fri Aug 22, 2014 6:49 am

Noel wrote:I was asking what the organising team were proposing to do to make the layout as accessible as possible for as many as possible of their visitors so that they can actually see and appreciate the layout.


Horsley Bank was at Scaleforum in 2010. That is now a long time ago in my book but I do not recall any complaints about the layout not being accessible and it did win the York Trophy so must have appealed to a lot of people. There will always be situations where some people cannot see a layout very well, especially those who use a wheel chair and small children. Some shows have steps for small people and periscopes for those in wheel chairs and realistically that is probably as far as any organiser can go. Most layouts are accessable to the majority of the visitors.

Terry Bendall

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steve howe
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Re: An Inglenook in P4

Postby steve howe » Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:40 pm

The recent fine weather and a series of domestic projects including some heavy building work at 12" to the foot has severely hampered modelling time and as a result the Plank is not as far advanced as I would have liked with less than a fortnight to go to S4rum, however some progress has been made and I hope to have some buildings well on the way by the Show.

One of the main features forming the background is the large goods warehouse of which more anon, but it has at least now got a loading platform to sit on. The surface was 2mm greyboard supported on a lattice of card strips.
plat1.JPG
The site for the goods platform


plat2.JPG


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The coping stones were scribed and cut into the edge and coloured using Tamiya acrylic. Brick facings were made with S E Finecast English Bond brick sheet. I find this far superior to the Slaters brick sheets being crisply moulded and very accurate.

plat4.JPG
A generous priming of dirty white spirit

The board then received a generous coat of white spirit and the dregs of the brush washing pot. This was followed by a thick application of dark grey paint, rather than use my expensive GWR wagon grey, I used dark grey oil based undercoat laid on very thickly which I seem to have overlooked to photograph....

plat6.JPG

This was immediately followed by a generous layer of talcum powder, and allowed to stand for 24 hours.

plat7.JPG
The finished surface

After which the talc was brushed off and saved for re-use (although preferably not on the baby) and the surface vigorously brushed with a stiff hog brush to create a worn tired appearance, a feature I seem to achieve quite naturally without resorting to the hog brush...

Coping well under the strain
The steep little access road down to the yard needed finishing with the traditional half-round coping stones found on many Pennine walls. The only way to fit the awkward shape was to make them individually, fortunately the wall is not a long one!

road4.JPG
The road down to the yard


road5.JPG

A section of DAS was rolled out to about 5 - 6mm diameter. When dry it was sawn into approximately 2mm slices with the piercing saw, each slice was then carefully cut in half.

road6.JPG

The sections were then bedded onto a bead of PVA working a few inches at a time. There will be a substantial gatepost at the end to support the capping stones and terminate the wall.

road7.JPG

When fully hard, the coping stones were vigorously gone over with a glass fibre brush to take off the raw edges and blend the stones together. A wash of raw umber and yellow ochre was applied to lose the white edges and then the stones were painted with stronger blends of the same colours plus black and raw sienna. It was important to make sure no white bits showed up in the crevices which immediately ruined the illusion.

road8.jpg

Not much depth of field I'm afraid but you get the general idea. Weeds and long grass will hopefully sprout soon.

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steve howe
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Re: An Inglenook in P4

Postby steve howe » Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:39 pm

The big warehouse has been slowly taking shape over the last couple of months. Having declared a general dislike for plastic sheet, I have to confess this structure is built from nothing else!

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The impressive Great Northern warehouse at Huddersfield
3315963567_04ef5e5b86[1].jpg (122.36 KiB) Viewed 5409 times


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Another great structure on the outskirts of Manchester (I think)
DSCF0531[1].jpg (92.28 KiB) Viewed 5409 times

I'm afraid I forget the location of the above building other than being somewhere approaching Manchester, but it has extraordinary atmosphere, the original, if I remember correctly has a curved façade.

wh1.JPG

S E Finecast English Bond brick sheets were used for the facings. The sheets are so accurately moulded that the building can be set out by counting the brick courses and joints.

wh2.JPG
Using a template to position the windows

The building was designed to fit its location and I am not entirely happy now with the layout of windows and loading doors, however things were too late to change!

wh3.JPG
cutting window apertures by scoring the edges and cutting diagonals

I like to work on a drawing board for making buildings as the parallel motion and setsquare does help keep everything square and accurate (well reasonably...)

wh4.JPG
The 5mm thick foamex substrate

The foundation substrate is 5mm Foamex, much used in the exhibition and sign making industries for mounting graphics. A word with the local sign maker may produce offcuts, also big stores like B&Q often have seasonal graphics which they throw out periodically and can be scrounged for the asking. Foamex has a good surface with a soft core which cuts very easily, but it seems to resist all solvents so assembling has to be done with Evo-stik or similar. I used Timebond to fix the brick sheet to the substrate having tried unsuccessfully with Display Mount spray adhesive which would not stick permanently. The window and door apertures were made about 3mm larger all round than the facing sheet. Etched windows by Geoff Taylor were sprayed matt black (no one seemed to know what colour the L & Y painted its iron windows) attached to acetate with spray adhesive and glued to the rear of the brick sheet prior to bonding to the substrate.

wh7.jpg
Mortar colour being applied

Mortar colour was mixed from white, yellow ochre and black acrylic paint.

wh8.jpg
The etched windows by Geoff Taylor


wh10.JPG
The blue brickwork applied first to the piers and string courses

I used the cakes of poster paint often used in school art rooms for colouring this building. Despite not sounding too hopeful, they are actually quite good quality paints although not as fine as watercolour and inclined to be 'chalky' but they are quite opaque and give a good, matt, slightly rough finish. Indigo blue and black were used for the blue engineering courses.

wh12.JPG


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Red brickwork being applied

The red brick was raw sienna, raw umber and black.

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The initial colouring almost complete


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The shell of the building begins to take shape

A great deal of weathering remains to be done before the building can be set in place.

wh18.JPG
Just about says it all really....time for bed!

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jim s-w
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Re: An Inglenook in P4

Postby jim s-w » Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:27 am

Good stuff

Try double sided tape for sticking plasticard to foam board. One comment though, your prototype pictures show the mortar as a dark colour (darker than the bricks) not a light colour. A case of model what you see not what you know.

Cheers

Jim

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Ian Everett
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Re: An Inglenook in P4

Postby Ian Everett » Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:43 am

steve howe wrote:I'm afraid I forget the location of the above building other than being somewhere approaching Manchester, but it has extraordinary atmosphere, the original, if I remember correctly has a curved façade.



These are two of my favourite railway structures. The first, in Huddersfield, is described as a GN warehouse but I always thought it was LNWR?

The second with its curved facade was at Clegg Street, Oldham, again, I think, LNWR, although my reference books are still in store after a house move. Sadly it is no more - see https://www.flickr.com/photos/21913923@N03/sets/72157622773430413/

BTW, those walls and capping stones are great - much better than my efforts at dry stone walling!

Ian

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steve howe
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Re: An Inglenook in P4

Postby steve howe » Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:25 pm

One comment though, your prototype pictures show the mortar as a dark colour (darker than the bricks) not a light colour. A case of model what you see not what you know.


Yes, thank you for that James :? There is still a long way to go with weathering the warehouse, I like to build things 'as new' and carry out weathering with successive layers of grime rather than try to go for a 'one off' weathered effect. The lime mortar would originally have been a sandy buff colour which as the lime reacted with the sulphur in the atmosphere would have oxidised to black or dark grey, similarly the bright orange bricks will disappear under layers of soot until the desired level of grot has been reached. I am wondering if I made Horsley Bank grubby enough compared to the photo of Halifax in the late '30s by Bill Brandt I found recently:

halifax smog2.jpg


Time to get the airbrush out I think! rest assured Jim more filth is on its way :twisted: !

Steve

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grovenor-2685
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Re: An Inglenook in P4

Postby grovenor-2685 » Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:49 pm

The lime mortar would originally have been a sandy buff colour which as the lime reacted with the sulphur in the atmosphere would have oxidised to black or dark grey,

In the Manchester area at least, the new mortar was indeed black. In the 50s my grandad had a builders yard and dad and his brother did property maintenance which I was often roped in to help with, one common task was to visit the yard for a few buckets of mortar to take to a repair job, and black it most definitely was. My vague recollection is that a proportion of soot was used in the mix, unlike cement mortars kept damp it would stay useable for several days. So far as I can remember there was only the one type of mortar prepared in the yard so I don't think it was a case of mixing up black mortar specifically for repairing old properties. It was along time ago though!
Keith

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steve howe
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Re: An Inglenook in P4

Postby steve howe » Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:31 pm

I wonder if there was a reason, other than aesthetic, why soot was added to the mortar? it seems a lot of trouble to go to just for appearance. Its not something I've heard of on the east side of the Pennines!
S

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grovenor-2685
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Re: An Inglenook in P4

Postby grovenor-2685 » Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:14 pm

Found this reference by Google, and I do rather thing Grandpa's yard had a small mill.
Black mortar is made from slag crushed in a mill, its strength depends on the quality of the slag. Sometime lime was added.
Also references to Black Ash mortar in Sheffield and black mortar in South Wales due to the availability of industrial wastes, which would fit in with slag.
regards
Keith

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Dave K
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Re: An Inglenook in P4

Postby Dave K » Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:13 am

steve howe wrote:The lime mortar would originally have been a sandy buff colour which as the lime reacted with the sulphur in the atmosphere would have oxidised to black or dark grey, similarly the bright orange bricks will disappear under layers of soot until the desired level of grot has been reached.

Steve,

As a matter of interest do you know when did the use of Lime Mortar cease and Portland Cement become more common place for new builds :?:

shipbadger
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Re: An Inglenook in P4

Postby shipbadger » Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:44 am

The use of lime mortar has not ceased, only declined. There are several firms specialising in the supply of materials and applying them in this part of the world (English/Welsh border) as it is realised that the inability of cement renders and mortars to 'breathe' can cause problems with damp. Several properties adjacent to mine have had lime used in mortars and plaster for recent repairs and there is a young lady living a few houses away who teaches lime mortar techniques, another friend of mine recently had some lessons.

Tony Comber

Alan Turner
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Re: An Inglenook in P4

Postby Alan Turner » Fri Sep 19, 2014 3:30 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:Found this reference by Google, and I do rather thing Grandpa's yard had a small mill.
Black mortar is made from slag crushed in a mill, its strength depends on the quality of the slag. Sometime lime was added.
Also references to Black Ash mortar in Sheffield and black mortar in South Wales due to the availability of industrial wastes, which would fit in with slag.
regards
Keith


You can still buy cement that has had Ground Blast Furnace Slag to it. It's used where you need particularly sulphate resistance concrete.

Blast Furnace slag is a pozzolan in its own right but in usually added to cement or lime.

regards

Alan

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steve howe
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Re: An Inglenook in P4

Postby steve howe » Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:15 pm

Before we pack up to go to Scaleforum, here's a quick look at one of the other buildings that has progressed reasonably far. I fancied having a pub on the street corner immediately next to the railway bridge and the inspiration for it came from a painting by my old chum Baz Ward, a York artist, who recorded a number of iconic painted advertisments on walls around the city before they were 'tidied up'. A painting he made of one such Samuel Smiths Ales advert hangs in the bar of the Wellington Inn in York which was my local for many years. The pub, or at least the back of it, and Baz's painting became the inspiration for the model.

pub1.JPG

The card elevation cut and scribed.

pub2.JPG

The card was embossed with a blunt scriber, the advert was photoshopped from a Taddy beer mat!

pub4.JPG

A wash of yellow ochre and ivory black was used to tint the mortar lines and give a base for painting.

pub5.JPG

Painting in progress using blends of raw sienna, raw umber, yellow ochre, burnt umber and black.

pub8.jpg

The stonework painted but awaiting final weathering.

pub9.jpg

The end wall was scribed to represent render which had been marked out suggesting ashlar blocks and painted with black bituminous paint. The black paint was Tamiya acrylic mixed with some buff. This was then dusted whilst wet with talc and brushed off when dry. The surface had to be waterproof to accept the 'painted' advert which was laser printed onto white decal paper. The texture of the wall shows through the artwork quite nicely.

pub9a.jpg

The paved yard at the rear was made of card lightly pencilled with the paving pattern and scribed. The photo shows a method of representing worn stonework shown to me by Roye England many years ago; the lower section has had the stones painted with a blend of raw sienna, raw umber and black. when dry, the stones are gone over with a damp brush to remove as much paint as will come off, washing the brush every few strokes, blotting the surface with a clean tissue results in a faded appearance.

pub9b.jpg

The yard slabs completed with additions of sap green to suggest moss and damp in the joints.

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The pub assembled ready for a trial fit.

pub11.jpg


pub12.jpg

The building in place above the railway, a narrow pathway alongside the wall gives access to the rear for 'Off' sales!

So that's about it for now, if you are at Aylesbury this weekend come and say hello, the layout is 'visitor operated' (provided it still works!) so come and try a shunt or two, anyone with wagons or a loco they want to try out will be very welcome - the layout's a test track after all!

Steve

Knuckles
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Re: An Inglenook in P4

Postby Knuckles » Sun May 14, 2017 11:43 pm

I've just read this whole thread 'cover to cover' in one hit on my break time (nightshift) and been thoroughly absorbed. Loving the casting techniques and stone effects especially.

Seeing as the last entry was 2014 is there anything else to the story or has the bulldozer been?
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparksho ... eationsscc
Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.
SCC Photon Resin Prints Price list
download/file.php?id=19320

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steve howe
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Re: An Inglenook in P4

Postby steve howe » Mon May 15, 2017 12:01 am

Thanks Knuckles,

I am also on the night shift, having just got back to Cornwall from ExpoEM with our club 0-16.5 layout Gweek North Quay as the 'guest scale', great weekend in good company:
http://www.hfmrc.com/Layouts/Helford_Valley_Railway

Horsley Lane Goods has been residing rent-free in our clubroom for about 18 months awaiting the time and inclination to finish the buildings. If you like the casting process you might find this thread of interest, which also explains why Horsley Lane Goods is still waiting to be finished!
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/95206-lower-rose-goods/

Lower Rose is almost complete now except for some landscaping and detailing so I'll try and put a few up to date images on here in due course.

Steve

Knuckles
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Re: An Inglenook in P4

Postby Knuckles » Mon May 15, 2017 3:57 am

Ah great, many thanks for the reply. I shall head over then. :)
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparksho ... eationsscc
Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.
SCC Photon Resin Prints Price list
download/file.php?id=19320

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Le Corbusier
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Re: An Inglenook in P4

Postby Le Corbusier » Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:21 pm

This is really inspiring ... glad it has come to the forefront as I would have missed it.

Tim
Tim Lee


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