Queensbridge Road Wharf

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garethashenden
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Re: Queensbridge Road Wharf

Postby garethashenden » Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:56 pm

There is now a fiddle yard for the layout! The next step is to fit it to the layout and add the tracks, so it's not done, but progress is progress.

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Queensbridge Road Wharf

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:21 am

Hi Gareth, :)

looks very neat indeed, could I ask you where you intend keeping your layout. The reason I am asking is that I have on many occasions had to store my layouts in the garage. Burntisland is stored in a garage which has some anti-frost heating, but still can have a damp air feel - not the very best conditions to store it, but manageable.

I now varnish all my wood before use and also during certain stages of construction to prevent moisture getting to the wood. The varnish dries quickly 20 minutes per coat - I give two coats normally. Given the tight clearance on your turntable yard you would have problems if it became damp, due to expansion and perhaps warping. The varnish I use is Ronseal Quick Drying varnish. It comes with a tint to represent different types of wood and behaves like shellac. Shellac was used to varnish card and wood in the old days to seal them without distorting the material. (Showing my age here!)

I also store any wood/ply/strip wood on the flat so there is no problem with them before use. (I check for any warping at the buying stage and avoid anything that is not good enough.)

Good to see the progress. :)

garethashenden
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Re: Queensbridge Road Wharf

Postby garethashenden » Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:12 pm

Thanks Allan, that's a really good point. This is all built from offcuts from my father's cabinet shop and it's all pre-finished ply. It's rather thick too at 12mm, so I should be ok, but I'll seal the ends of the turntable.

Terry Bendall
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Re: Queensbridge Road Wharf

Postby Terry Bendall » Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:53 am

Allan Goodwillie wrote:I now varnish all my wood before use and also during certain stages of construction to prevent moisture getting to the wood


If this is done, you would have to varnish all round, and especially the edges of plywood and the ends of solid timber. I have never found the need to do this but its your train set (or woodpile :))

My stack of timber tends to get out of hand with a lot stored in the garage, with the car which of course will be wet at times, and shorter pieces under the woodwork bench in my workshop. In spite of the less than ideal conditions there are no observable problems with moisture. Traditionally the best way of storing seasoned timber is in a dry place with minimal heating which was always done years ago in schools where the woodwork room would have such a store.

garethashenden wrote: It's rather thick too at 12mm, so I should be ok


For me 12mm thick is ideal and I avoid using anything thinner especially for a design like this.

Terry Bendall

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Queensbridge Road Wharf

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:15 pm

Hi Gareth and Terry, :)

Terry is right and has far more experience of wood than I have as he has dealt with it every day for most of his life. I do varnish any freshly cut edges. I sometimes sand off the varnish if the wood surface is to take glue as the varnish would be the week link. The glue would provide the seal to the materials.

We have had trouble with wood swelling on Burntisland despite it being mainly heavy ply, even when the garage it is kept in is dry and has low heating during the winter - no car in the garage by the way. I am trying to keep wood to a minimum on my layout.

I know for some it will appear to be a bit belt and braces, but I am using thinner materials on my new layout and do not want there to be any warping or expansion due to dampness as from time to time it will be stored in the garage room under Grayrigg - I do have some heating there over the winter and it is pretty well insulated :)

Sadly, I have also seen good layouts being ruined by getting wet in the past. Turntable fiddle yards are particularly prone to twisting if not sealed and supported. If Gareth's layout is going to be kept in the house I am sure it will be fine. :thumb

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Queensbridge Road Wharf

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:37 pm

My experience with timber is that for the most part it is over dried within the kilns nowadays ... this is fine if it is going straight in to a nice dry centrally heated house ... but if it is stored in a place with higher moisture content it can swell and twist all over the place. Its a perennial problem with building as the heating comes on relatively late in the process and if the timber is delivered to site before the wet trades have dried out, then even if it comes into a heated and weather tight environment, the higher humidity levels still cause things to swell and twist. WBP and Marine plywoods tend to be more forgiving because of the glue used for the laminations. Not sure what the solution is apart from finding a good timber supplier.
Tim Lee

Terry Bendall
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Re: Queensbridge Road Wharf

Postby Terry Bendall » Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:49 am

For those who may not know WBP is the acronym for Water Boiled Proofing - a form of treatment for making plywood to an exterior grade and water resistant Marine plywood is waterproof and therefore different to being water resistant. Interior grade plywood is just that and if it gets wet the layers of ply will come unstuck, even if it is painted.

For baseboards marine plywood is probably a bit OTT and exterior grade would normally be perfectly good and is what I use.

Le Corbusier wrote: My experience with timber is that for the most part it is over dried within the kilns nowadays


The general level of moisture content for timber is between 8 -10 % for timber that is to be used indoors. Yes these things can be a problem with construction timber used in a new building but for our baseboards not usually. As with everything else you get what you pay for. In a DIY store you can probably turn over the timber and select what you need and check for straightness and lack of twist. More difficult if you buy a wrapped bundle of all the same size where the lengths inside may be hidden.

The general level of moisture content for timber is between 8 -10 % for timber that is to be used indoors. Yes these things can be a problem with construction timber used in a new building as it dries out but for our baseboards not usually. As with everything else you get what you pay for. In a DIY store you can probably turn over the timber and select what you need and check for straightness and lack of twist. More difficult if you buy a wrapped bundle of all the same size where the lengths inside may be hidden. A decent timber yard if you can find one is usually better. Those with not much knowledge of such places may hesitate to venture inside but usually those who serve the customers will be willing to assist the inexperienced.

Terry Bendall

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Queensbridge Road Wharf

Postby Le Corbusier » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:40 pm

Terry Bendall wrote: A decent timber yard if you can find one is usually better. Those with not much knowledge of such places may hesitate to venture inside but usually those who serve the customers will be willing to assist the inexperienced.

Terry Bendall

I would second that ... :thumb

A few years back we did some checks on "DIY" timber and found it was actually slightly drier than the range Terry mentions and the quality is often poor. As I say, probably not an issue if going in to a centrally heated and dry house ... but if you are fabricating in an in an un-heated space that suffers a little from a damp atmosphere, then you might have problems. Higher quality timber is more forgiving.
Tim Lee

Alan Turner
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Re: Queensbridge Road Wharf

Postby Alan Turner » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:08 pm

The only difference between WBP and marine ply is that real marine ply is hardwood veniers throughout wheras WBP may have softwood interior veniers.

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Alan

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Queensbridge Road Wharf

Postby Le Corbusier » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:03 pm

Either I think would be fine for internal modelling purposes.

For those who are interested, yet again it all comes down to the supplier. The classifications purely relate to a broad specification of manufacture. Quality control in manufacturing is key, but also selection of the laminates and voids within the laminates are critical. As with so much, some imports are very low grade but comply with the letter of the specification requirements .... if it is really cheap it probably is.

If marine ply is well manufacture it is better than WBP because of the choice of the lamination material which is naturally impregnated with durable oils and is dense celled ... WBP purely relates to the waterproof bonding. Having said that, some of the hi grade WBP offerings are very good as they do use quality laminates.
Tim Lee

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Queensbridge Road Wharf

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:36 pm

I bought 8 sheets of 8'x4' marine ply when extending Dubbieside in the museum. It is much tougher to work, especially if you are hand sawing, but it did provide strong baseboards. :)

allanferguson
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Re: Queensbridge Road Wharf

Postby allanferguson » Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:32 pm

I've got some 1/2" marine ply which I've had for over 15 years. During much of that time it's lain outside (It was bought for the boat after all). Although a bit discoloured it's still perfectly flat and with no sign of delamination or other deterioration. It's had no varnish or other protection on it. It's very expensive though!

Allan F

garethashenden
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Re: Queensbridge Road Wharf

Postby garethashenden » Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:31 am

I have finally finished the wiring. Well, except for the fiddleyard. The points have been finished, the point motors installed, a control box assembled, wires strung around. Lots of work with not that much to show. I have tested most of the layout and things are working well. I can't check the first point yet, it's too close to the fiddleyard. I hope to have the fiddleyard track and wiring done soon, but I'll probably get distracted by something else first.

In the meantime, I have a video showing a bit of testing. Everything's gotten a bit modern for my Edwardian layout, Something else to sort out...


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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Queensbridge Road Wharf

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:20 am

Ah very therapeutic Gareth! Good progress as well, nice to get to this point. I am looking forward to getting there myself. You will find yourself having a nice little play at all odd hours now! Well done! :D

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steve howe
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Re: Queensbridge Road Wharf

Postby steve howe » Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:32 pm

Looking good Gareth, these 'simple' trackplans can be deceptively complex! also far more 'prototypical' than the plethora of 3-ways, slips and diamonds we sometimes see crammed into tiny spaces :o

Can I ask what the overall dimensions of the scenic part of the layout are and the crossing angles you settled on? I'm thinking about a continuation of my plank with a second scene to a mine and this looks to fit the bill!

Steve

garethashenden
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Re: Queensbridge Road Wharf

Postby garethashenden » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:13 pm

steve howe wrote:Looking good Gareth, these 'simple' trackplans can be deceptively complex! also far more 'prototypical' than the plethora of 3-ways, slips and diamonds we sometimes see crammed into tiny spaces :o

Can I ask what the overall dimensions of the scenic part of the layout are and the crossing angles you settled on? I'm thinking about a continuation of my plank with a second scene to a mine and this looks to fit the bill!

Steve


Thanks Steve! The scenic section is 4'x15" and the crossing angles are all 5. I think all the points are A5, it's whatever Templot came up with. I can send you the Templot file if you'd like.

garethashenden
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Re: Queensbridge Road Wharf

Postby garethashenden » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:47 pm

Here are both the Templot file and the PDF for those who are interested.
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garethashenden
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Re: Queensbridge Road Wharf

Postby garethashenden » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:48 pm

Today I decided to shorten the main siding at the front of the layout. With the bufferstop in place there was very little room between it and the adjacent building. I didn't think it looked like a reasonable way for any sort of vehicle to access the wharf. I looked at a couple of options and ended up shortening the track by about the length of the bufferstop. I think it looks much more natural and less cramped.

Before:
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During:
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And After:
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steve howe
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Re: Queensbridge Road Wharf

Postby steve howe » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:17 am

Good move. I like the 'Pearly King' and his sidekick in the background :D

Steve

garethashenden
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Re: Queensbridge Road Wharf

Postby garethashenden » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:59 pm

Progress has continued with track being laid in the fiddleyard. I made it over to Scalefour North a week ago and picked up the last package of Exactoscale P4 trackbase that C&L had in stock. This turned out to be the perfect amount to build a three road sector plate. I had considered four roads, but there wasn't enough space between the tracks to handle the stock. I also had almost the prefect amount of rail left over from the scenic section. I still have to wire it up, but trains roll smoothly over the track joints, so things are looking good. Having track on the fiddleyard has allowed me to finish testing the first point and I am pleased to report that it is functioning properly. It's so close to the baseboard edge that I had only been able to test it in one direction previously.
I have found a coupe of wagons, some unfinished, that need a bit more weight as well as a short section of track where the gauge is 19.45mm. Not sure how that happened, but it will be rectified.
Here is the fiddleyard part way through tracklaying:
Image

garethashenden
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Re: Queensbridge Road Wharf

Postby garethashenden » Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:25 pm

I made a bunch of temporary buildings today. I thought that having something would be better than nothing and I could work out the basic designs now. Most of the buildings are based on real ones I've found in London. Most have been rearranged a bit, but they should give the character I'm after. Everything is built out of foam board and tape because I had it to hand and it's easy to work with. Tomorrow I'll spay them all a light brown colour to help with the appearance. There will be a retaining wall sloping downwards to the right. It is partially marked out in pencil.

First up is a group of four buildings based on the Whitechapel Bell Foundry. I've mirrored them horizontally but they're otherwise modelled on the prototype. The biggest change is that the first structure is now trapezoidal to fit against the road where the prototype is rectangular.

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The next two buildings come from a street just south of Tower Bridge. They're both small warehouses with the charming small cranes mounted on the walls. Unfortunately I think I will have to leave these off the models. I think it would be more realistic for the cranes to be on the street side, which is where the backscene is. But there will be more cranes later...

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The next building features the road access to the goods yard. Unfortunately I seem not to have photographed it, so I have included an image from google maps. The building may change, it's one of two that still need to be finalised, but the length is fixed, the height's about right, and the arch for vehicular access needs to be there. It will probably get a hip roof as most of the other buildings have.

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The building at the end of the layout is the only one I've actually started work on, and I've barely started. It's based on the Metropolitan Wharf in Wapping. I have been planning on having some latice walkways between this building and the one with the arch to help hide the hole in the backscene. However, now that I'm actually putting them in place there is a choice between hiding the hole or having them line up with the floors of the warehouse. This will need to be rethought.

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Next we have a view of the bridge over the tracks. The building on the left will be a small factory manufacturing wooden packing cases. It was inspired by one of the buildings that now make up Camden Market, although there is no architectural similarities. In front of it, at the edge of the layout, is a staircase going from the street down to the canal. I have some 3D printed stairs to go here, but I can't find them anywhere.

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Finally there are the two other buildings on the road. The one in the corner hasn't been developed at all. The general size is right but I need to choose a prototype for it. The other one at the front corner is a rather interesting small warehouse in Limehouse. I'm not sure if it's been painted, the top and bottom look to be London yellow brick, but the middle seems to be red... But it has a crane, so all is good.

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RobM
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Re: Queensbridge Road Wharf

Postby RobM » Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:20 am

Some very interesting buildings to be modelled.....look forward to their progress......
Rob
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Noel
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Re: Queensbridge Road Wharf

Postby Noel » Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:39 pm

RobM wrote:Some very interesting buildings to be modelled.....look forward to their progress......


Indeed; some idiosyncratic and interesting buildings, of significantly different vintages and styles. I presume that the small warehouses back onto the river?

I would, though, question the road access through the arch, as visibility would be effectively zero, especially for the horse-drawn vehicles which would have been the original users. Even in pre-H&S days the risk of being struck by moving wagons or locos would almost certainly have been unacceptable, and frightened horses are unpredictable. The carman could lead the horse in, but the risk would still exist. There would also have been issues with ownership and rights of way unless the railway owned the building above the arch; in the prototype you show this arch would have been the access to the wharf behind the warehouse, which would both have been in the same ownership, which is presumably not the case in your scenario?

Another factor is the likely need for a weighbridge, unless the yard only deals with certain limited types of traffic, plus the need for accommodation for the clerks who deal with all the considerable paperwork that railway goods traffic generated, and possibly stables for any railway horses based at the yard.
Noel

garethashenden
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Re: Queensbridge Road Wharf

Postby garethashenden » Tue May 01, 2018 4:57 am

Noel wrote: Indeed; some idiosyncratic and interesting buildings, of significantly different vintages and styles. I presume that the small warehouses back onto the river?

The real small warehouses back onto Tower Bridge Road. They're not very interesting on that side, but the Horsleydown Lane side is more picturesque. On the layout there is an off scene road behind the backscene that these are on. I don't think they have any direct access to the goods yard.

Noel wrote:I would, though, question the road access through the arch, as visibility would be effectively zero, especially for the horse-drawn vehicles which would have been the original users. Even in pre-H&S days the risk of being struck by moving wagons or locos would almost certainly have been unacceptable, and frightened horses are unpredictable. The carman could lead the horse in, but the risk would still exist. There would also have been issues with ownership and rights of way unless the railway owned the building above the arch; in the prototype you show this arch would have been the access to the wharf behind the warehouse, which would both have been in the same ownership, which is presumably not the case in your scenario?

These are a couple of interesting points that I hadn't considered. Here are my initial solutions, maybe there are better ones.
There will presumably be a gate of some sort in the archway so that the goods yard can be secured at night. Would it be safe to assume that a horse in the yard would be relatively safe and that it's really only horses entering through the arch that we need to worry about? If that is true could the gate act as a crossing gate? It's open when trains aren't present but gets shut when a train arrives. Thereby removing the risk of hitting a horse while shunting.
As for access through the archway, I think having it be a railway owned warehouse is entirely possible. I'm not modelling any of the buildings so it hasn't shown up yet, but one of the early inspirations for the layout was the complex of warehouses that now form Camden Market. These were LNWR warehouses on the edge of Regent's Canal. I'm not aware of the North London having any warehouses of their own, but everyone else had them and I can see them wanting a bit of the action. So they decided to build a couple of warehouses along the canal slightly to the east, exactly where the layout is set.

Noel wrote:Another factor is the likely need for a weighbridge, unless the yard only deals with certain limited types of traffic, plus the need for accommodation for the clerks who deal with all the considerable paperwork that railway goods traffic generated, and possibly stables for any railway horses based at the yard.

I had thought of a weighbridge, I probably need to look into the details a bit more. One option is right across the track from the archway. There is also room for an office up against the warehouse on the right. The local coal merchants will certainly want to weight their coal. I'm not sure about stables, there isn't actually much need for shunting. Once the incoming wagons have been exchanged with the outgoing, all the work is done and that may as well be done with the engines. On the other hand, if there is a lot of road traffic generated by the railway owned warehouses they would need stables. No idea where to fit them in thought...

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Noel
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Re: Queensbridge Road Wharf

Postby Noel » Tue May 01, 2018 3:20 pm

garethashenden wrote:The real small warehouses back onto Tower Bridge Road.

Thanks for that. I spent a number of years commuting into London Bridge and walking across to Fenchurch Street [the road, not the station] or, later, Aldgate, but my lunchtime/weekend ramblings were normally north of the river for some reason, so I'm not familiar with that area.

garethashenden wrote:There will presumably be a gate of some sort in the archway so that the goods yard can be secured at night. Would it be safe to assume that a horse in the yard would be relatively safe and that it's really only horses entering through the arch that we need to worry about? If that is true could the gate act as a crossing gate? It's open when trains aren't present but gets shut when a train arrives. Thereby removing the risk of hitting a horse while shunting.

Or just assume that trains are only present early in the morning before the yard opens [and the rush hour commuter trains run], perhaps?

garethashenden wrote: I'm not aware of the North London having any warehouses of their own, but everyone else had them and I can see them wanting a bit of the action. So they decided to build a couple of warehouses along the canal slightly to the east, exactly where the layout is set.

The NLR owned Poplar Docks, for shunting which the Park 0-6-0s were built. Several of the northern main line companies had warehouses at these docks [Midland, GNR and LNWR at least]; whether the NLR did I don't know [they did have a coal depot in the area]. The NLR was a very local line, with much of their very heavy commuter traffic running over other companies' lines, so their local freight traffic would not have been much [as distinct from traffic out of the docks, which would have been operated by the 'main line' companies]. As they had a very close relationship with the LNWR even before the LNWR takeover in 1909 I wonder whether their local freight traffic would have been worked by the LNWR?

garethashenden wrote:I'm not sure about stables, there isn't actually much need for shunting.


Some traffic would be brought to, or taken away from, the yard by consignees no doubt, but I was thinking of railway owned drays for moving goods in and out of the yard, rather than shunting horses.

garethashenden wrote:The local coal merchants will certainly want to weight their coal.

Commonly done by shovelling out of the wagon into 1 cwt sacks, weighed on portable scales, even into the mid-20th century. No buildings required, and no need to use a railway weighbridge as the railway would not have been interested in the weight of the coal at that point. The scales would be on the road vehicle, or on the propped drop door of the wagon. Some companies, at least, prohibited propping of doors, but photos show it still happened.
Noel


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