Automatic Crispin

[SteamAle]

For some time now I've been thinking about the Rev Peter Denny's Buckingham Great Central layout. I followed it for years in the model press and have seen part of it in the flesh and just this week watched the You Tube video link that was posted on this forum.
It's time to ask the question: -
Has anybody made the equivelant of an Automatic Crispin, using modern electronics, to help them operate their layout?

[Alan Turner]

For some time now I've been thinking about the Rev Peter Denny's Buckingham Great Central layout. I followed it for years in the model press and have seen part of it in the flesh and just this week watched the You Tube video link that was posted on this forum.
It's time to ask the question: -
Has anybody made the equivelant of an Automatic Crispin, using modern electronics, to help them operate their layout?

A question that has been asked many times.

In reality technology has moved on. You should look at JMRI (https://www.jmri.org/) or RocRail (https://wiki.rocrail.net/doku.php)

regards

Alan

[martin goodall]

I know very little about computing, but my understanding is that before any computer program is written a systems analyst should examine the operational functions that the program is intended to perform and then specify the requirements that the program will be required to fulfill. Only then should a programmer be let loose on the task and start writing code.

The 'AC' was an electro-mechanical device which performed various functions that it should now be possible to computerise. I believe Tony Gee hopes to restore the original machine to working order, but analysis of the functions that this device performs might be a good starting point for the relevant systems analysis that could underpin any programming intended to perform the same or similar functions on other layouts.

The only drawback to such a programming project that I foresee is that the actual program that might be written would have to be a bespoke design based on a specific working timetable / operating sequence for the particular layout that it is intended to control. I suppose that a basic specification might be devised for general application (rather in the same way as Templot does for layout planning), but actual programming would depend on the particular requirements of each case. So it seems to me that a need for bespoke programming would be unavoidable.

Incidentally, I had the interesting experience of working Grandborough Junction on one occasion in 1975. I had suggested that I might operate Leighton Buzzard (Linslade), but Peter Denny insisted that I should take over the controls at Grandborough, where the next 'box up the line was the 'AC'. This made a loud whirring noise, which one quickly learnt to ignore as 'white noise'. The machine was programmed so that if the operator at Grandborough got behind by more than a certain number of minutes (on the accelerated clock), it would switch itself off to enable the hapless or incompetent operator to catch up. This duly happened to me, whereupon there was a deafening silence, and everyone turned to look at me! It was like a Bateman cartoon - "The man who caused the Automatic Crispin to turn itself off".

[Noel]

I know very little about computing, but my understanding is that before any computer program is written a systems analyst should examine the operational functions that the program is intended to perform and then specify the requirements that the program will be required to fulfill. Only then should a programmer be let loose on the task and start writing code.

You may not need a dedicated system analyst, it depends on how complex the problem is, but in principle you are perfectly correct, Martin. Someone has to talk to the end user(s), find out what they want, reconcile that with what is realistically achievable in the circumstances applying, repeat as necessary until there is an agreed proposal, and then do the high level design for the programmer(s) to implement.

I suppose that a basic specification might be devised for general application (rather in the same way as Templot does for layout planning), but actual programming would depend on the particular requirements of each case. So it seems to me that a need for bespoke programming would be unavoidable.

Templot has, like my Traffic programme, no direct interface with the real world*; they provide information to a user. A direct interface requires suitable hardware, software to communicate with it (both ways), knowledge of how it all works and what it is expected to do, plus the ability to connect it all up and get it to work, so I think you are very probably right. There is also a potential issue with obsolescence of the hardware and the need to rewrite or replace software accordingly.

* I am aware of the use of Templot to provide the files for a 3D printer, but this is, in principle, no different to 2D printing from a word processor. The output is a file for another machine, not a 'real time' dialogue with other hardware.

[Highpeak]

The only drawback to such a programming project that I foresee is that the actual program that might be written would have to be a bespoke design based on a specific working timetable / operating sequence for the particular layout that it is intended to control.

That's part of the design phase. The system would need a simple user-interface to issue instructions concerning the what and when of the various movements. To make it at all portable there would probably have to be some assumptions and restrictions as to the design of the storage yard and the exits/entrances. You would need to be able to describe the routes to be set in terms of which turnouts are involved and how they have to be aligned, which power feeds need to be energised (assuming DC control) or which locomotives have to be selected (DCC control) and so on.

This isn't a trivial undertaking. I'll stick to configuring time and attendance systems.

[Tim V]

I would agree with Alan. JMRI can do this, there was a demonstration layout at Warley a few years ago.

However, I think AC also generated bell signals? Not sure that JMRI could do this - essentially it's American with dispatcher type of operations.

[martin goodall]

I think AC also generated bell signals? Not sure that JMRI could do this - essentially it's American with dispatcher type of operations.

Yes, the AC generated bell signals, and the operator (signalman) at Grandborough Junction had to send the appropriate bell signals to the AC to enable the next move to be made. As I mentioned, failure to respond to the AC within a reasonable time would result in its turning itself off.

What I may have failed to make clear in my earlier remarks is that I am sceptical as to the practicability of devising a bespoke computer program for a single layout that would be economically viable for the supplier and realistically affordable for the user. The AC, being electro-mechanical, and having been designed to cater for the particular needs of the Buckingham Branch was a sound practical solution to the problem of performing the functions of the next signalman up the line. It was an impressive piece of design and was very reliable in its operation. I understand that the AC needs some work to be done on it to bring it back into working order, but I am sure that Tony Gee will complete that work as soon as he can.

[grovenor-2685]

that I am sceptical as to the practicability of devising a bespoke computer program for a single layout that would be economically viable for the supplier and realistically affordable for the user.

Why consider a commercial operation like that? Surely the spirit of Peter Denny exemplified in the AC is DIY. There are many microcontrollers available these days that can be programmed to do such things and is learning how to do it not part of the fun? The various Arduino and/or Raspberry Pi Pico modules will be up to the job with suitable input and output and are not expensive.

[jon price]

Why consider a commercial operation like that? Surely the spirit of Peter Denny exemplified in the AC is DIY. There are many microcontrollers available these days that can be programmed to do such things and is learning how to do it not part of the fun? The various Arduino and/or Raspberry Pi Pico modules will be up to the job with suitable input and output and are not expensive.

I agree entirely. Don't consider this a commercial activity. An open source approach, with modular components for particular tasks would make it easy to assemble an AC to suit each individual requirement. I suspect It would enable solo operation of smaller layouts, especially those depicting junctions, much more operationally interesting.

[Alan Turner]

I would agree with Alan. JMRI can do this, there was a demonstration layout at Warley a few years ago.

However, I think AC also generated bell signals? Not sure that JMRI could do this - essentially it's American with dispatcher type of operations.

Yes quite correct AC did generate bell signals - that was the purpose of the large disc.

Layout control was by way of the paper scroll.

I have often thought about this although my thoughts were towards an "authentic" approach using 3D printed components to construct the Bell-Code wheel and the paper scroll mechanism. It would all be 12v powered, unlike the original, using N10 geared motors and servos.

I'm sure a compact unit could be produced - although it would be highly layout specific.

I thought the chart paper may be a stumbling block but I've just had a look and it's still available. In fact RS still sells it and not too expensive - RS 455-7077

You've sent me off down the rabbit hole now!

This would be a better way of dealing with the paper-tape: https://www.instructables.com/DIY-Paper ... nd-Reader/

Also, rather than using sprocketed paper you could use a Bern Escapement to advance the paper step.

regards

Alan

[Noel]

I knew of the existence of the AC from long ago reading, but have never known any details. Based on what has been written in the latest posts, am I correct in thinking that the AC is not just layout specific, but timetable specific as well [i.e. you can't change the timetable without changing at least some of the hardware]?

[Alan Turner]

I knew of the existence of the AC from long ago reading, but have never known any details. Based on what has been written in the latest posts, am I correct in thinking that the AC is not just layout specific, but timetable specific as well [i.e. you can't change the timetable without changing at least some of the hardware]?

It is both layout specific and timetable specific.

The difference is that the timetable is alterable by using a different paper roll - that's the programme if you like.

It's layout specific but to alter that requires hardware changes as the paper tape programme drives specific switches that go to control signals and points.

I suppose you could make one that was perhaps a little adaptable by providing redundant switches that could be reconfigured for different layouts.

regards

Alan

[Winander]

You've sent me off down the rabbit hole now!

Ditto. For ease of manufacture, a mechanical system would have to be layout specific, but a digital system....

I have been to operate Buckingham with the Cumbria Area Group, and seen AC forlorn in a box. I never thought until this thread about reproducing it and I suppose, in the spirit of the original, I need to call it the alternative Adam.

[Tony Wilkins]

that I am sceptical as to the practicability of devising a bespoke computer program for a single layout that would be economically viable for the supplier and realistically affordable for the user.

Why consider a commercial operation like that? Surely the spirit of Peter Denny exemplified in the AC is DIY. There are many microcontrollers available these days that can be programmed to do such things and is learning how to do it not part of the fun? The various Arduino and/or Raspberry Pi Pico modules will be up to the job with suitable input and output and are not expensive.

Hi Keith.
I would agree, but unfortunately, even with the best will in the world, anything to do with computers will always be anathema to some.
Regards
Tony.

[peter3292004]

I hope these bookmarks will provide some useful background

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQ6ZJvRLnQA

https://highlandmiscellany.com/category ... m-central/

https://www.amazon.com/Peter-Dennys-Buc ... 1874103143

[Guy Rixon]

I suspect that for DCC layouts a large part of this problem is already solved. One would need a way to set a route to and from the fiddle yard and a way to make a specific train move. IIRC, there are DCC-controllable point motors and I know that there are DCC control programs to run on mobile devices; IIUC they are open source. Therefore, It's possible to write a program that starts a specific train to or from a specific siding in a ladder yard and without building any custom electronics.

For kicks, one could leave out the user-friendly GUI on the mobile device and just have the program ring bells when it was time for it to send a train.

[Alan Turner]

I suspect that for DCC layouts a large part of this problem is already solved. One would need a way to set a route to and from the fiddle yard and a way to make a specific train move. IIRC, there are DCC-controllable point motors and I know that there are DCC control programs to run on mobile devices; IIUC they are open source. Therefore, It's possible to write a program that starts a specific train to or from a specific siding in a ladder yard and without building any custom electronics.

For kicks, one could leave out the user-friendly GUI on the mobile device and just have the program ring bells when it was time for it to send a train.

All of that, except for the bell codes, is available by adoption of JMRI or RocRail now.

I don't think that the bell codes are a stumbling block - it just needs some thought.

regards

Alan

[nigelcliffe]

I suspect that for DCC layouts a large part of this problem is already solved. One would need a way to set a route to and from the fiddle yard and a way to make a specific train move. IIRC, there are DCC-controllable point motors and I know that there are DCC control programs to run on mobile devices; IIUC they are open source. Therefore, It's possible to write a program that starts a specific train to or from a specific siding in a ladder yard and without building any custom electronics.

For kicks, one could leave out the user-friendly GUI on the mobile device and just have the program ring bells when it was time for it to send a train.

All of that, except for the bell codes, is available by adoption of JMRI or RocRail now.

I don't think that the bell codes are a stumbling block - it just needs some thought.

regards

Alan

Bell codes would be a doddle to add in JMRI (assuming they're not implemented in the bell instrument device itself - ie. send the device "ring 2-3-2" and the device that). Could be done numerous ways within JMRI. I think JMRI is best thought of as a very large Meccano set, possibly with the instructions all muddled up. One can use it to build lots of different things and build them in multiple ways.

The whole project could also be done in any of the current small microprocessors that Keith mentioned.

[47331xosIM]

For some time now I've been thinking about the Rev Peter Denny's Buckingham Great Central layout. I followed it for years in the model press and have seen part of it in the flesh and just this week watched the You Tube video link that was posted on this forum.
It's time to ask the question: -
Has anybody made the equivelant of an Automatic Crispin, using modern electronics, to help them operate their layout?

Evening all,
I am very fortunate to know Tony Gee and have the opportunity to operate Buckingham with him on a fairly regular basis. Tony isn't a member here, but he has read the thread and was going to post a link to this video on Facebook so people could see the original Automatic Crispin working, as described by the original creator, Rev Peter Denny. We dont think you have to be a member of Facebook to see it, but apologies if you do.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1173056213553316

Remarkably all the rolling stock and the locos featured in this video from 43 years ago, are still running on the layout today!

If anyone has any questions I'll happily pass them onto Tony on your behalf.

Rich