Onward from Ambergate

[TonyMont]

Hi,
Thanks for the replies, having made several thousand solder joints I am going to go for flexi track for the remainder, probably SMP gauge widened. I have completed all the tighter radii.

Horsetan I hope I can restore your love for the layout as I try to breath new life into it.

Regards Tony.

[Philip Hall]

I think SMP gauge widened is a bit excessive. I think it’s 19.33mm. I’ve just bought standard from them and it’s 18.79 - 18.85, which is just about manageable. It’s for use in sidings so should be ok.

Philip

[Penrhos1920]

I think SMP gauge widened is a bit excessive. I think it’s 19.33mm. I’ve just bought standard from them and it’s 18.79 - 18.85, which is just about manageable. It’s for use in sidings so should be ok.

Philip

That must be designed for 24” radius curves

[TonyMont]

Hi,
Thanks Philip I am glad someone has measured the gauge. What concerns me is that I need to curve some of the track and if it is under gauge to start with then I am in trouble. I suppose ply and rivet is the solution.

Next query, from the photo attached from 'Through Limestone Hills' by Bill Hudson copyright Railways Yesteryear it can be seen that the new bridge has guard rails and some external guiding rails of some sort.

New viad.jpeg

How would these be modelled, I have dimensions for the inside guide rails, having a flangeway gap of 2.625", but the outer ones I have never seen before. Any help gratefully received.
Regards Tony.

[Philip Hall]

Tony, FastTrack bases from the Stores are the answer then if you’re worried about gauge, just a bit more expensive than SMP. But if it’s ‘hidden’, I would get a box of standard non-widened SMP to try. Once pinned or glued down any tight spots can be run through with a flat file and then checked with a Mint Gauge. I’ve got some sidings laid to 3’6” radius with the SMP and with a file here and there it seems ok. Worth a try in that location. If you’re forced into copper clad again, give me a buzz, I might have some.

Philip

[TonyMont]

Hi Philip,
Thanks, I will try some SMP, as you said it can always be used in sidings. I think I have had enough of copper clad for the moment and fast track is thick sleepers I think.

It looks like I might have beaten the collective knowledge of the forum, as no one seems to have an answer to my track query. I will try the Templot club, surely someone has seen this arrangement before.

Regards Tony.

[Philip Hall]

Tony, I forgot to mention that SMP sleepers are too closely spaced but in hidden storage that doesn’t matter. In sidings here we’ve spaced the sleepers out a bit.

FastTrack is full depth sleepers, the earlier C&L is thin sleepered and they might still have some left after the change to their new thicker bases. SMP is still the cheapest!

Philip

[philip-griffiths]

Hi,

Next query, from the photo attached from 'Through Limestone Hills' by Bill Hudson copyright Railways Yesteryear it can be seen that the new bridge has guard rails and some external guiding rails of some sort.
New viad.jpeg
How would these be modelled, I have dimensions for the inside guide rails, having a flangeway gap of 2.625", but the outer ones I have never seen before. Any help gratefully received.
Regards Tony.

There were guide rails attach to the sleepers on both sides of the line crossing Crumlin viaduct. Here is a fuzzy picture. Regards.

https://railuk.info/gallery/getimage.php?id=2101

[grovenor-2685]

Hi,
Next query, from the photo attached from 'Through Limestone Hills' by Bill Hudson copyright Railways Yesteryear it can be seen that the new bridge has guard rails and some external guiding rails of some sort.
How would these be modelled, I have dimensions for the inside guide rails, having a flangeway gap of 2.625", but the outer ones I have never seen before. Any help gratefully received.
Regards Tony.

I don't think those are continuous guard rails, I would see them just as short guide rails to help get any derailed vehicle back in line where the guard rail can hold it. If you visualise a derailed vehicle off to the left it needs to be pulled back to the right so that the right hand wheelset gets captured by the guard rail. So all you need is a couple of pieces of curved rail and some sort of support. Similar in concept to the one shown here, http://www.norgrove.me.uk/GWRtracknotes/R4296A.pdf
I often wonder what, if any, testing they may have done on these contraptions, I can't see it working at anything more than very slow speed.

[Julian Roberts]

https://images.app.goo.gl/eV6Jg7TgY3sGy6QTA

Lots of photos of the track with guard rails over Barmouth Bridge . It has a footpath alongside the track. I can't find my photos but I've taken several too.

[zebedeesknees]

Guard rails
I think that these would be there to prevent a derailed vehicle, especially a locomotive, from being steered by the flanges on the outsides of the chairs towards the side of the bridge. Could make the difference between a derailment and a bridge collapse.

Ted.

[grovenor-2685]

Hi,
it can be seen that the new bridge has guard rails and some external guiding rails of some sort.
How would these be modelled, I have dimensions for the inside guide rails, having a flangeway gap of 2.625", but the outer ones I have never seen before. Any help gratefully received.
Regards Tony.

I missed the implication of the flangeway dimension you quote, the photo does not look like that to me, and that dimension would make the gathering rails redundant.
The usual requirement is to keep derailed vehicles in line and stop them falling off the bridge. To this end there needs to be room for a derailed wheel to run between the running rail and guard rail as on the link I gave, the other wheel on that axle then runs on the sleeper ends.
An alternative sometimes used attempts to prevent a derailment by holding the wheelset in a position where one wheel has the flange up on the railhead, and this is what would be achieved with a flangeway of 2.625 inches. But this will not deal with a wheelset that has derailed before reaching the bridge which the gathering rails are for. We really need to find a better picture of that bridge, is there anything in the Midland study centre?

[Hardwicke]

I'm sure I've seen these on bridges on the network still in use

[grovenor-2685]

The problem is there are many different varieties, a look at Julian's link above shows a selection but not the right ones. And the change from Bullhead to flatbottom would always mean they were replaced so you would be very lucky indeed to find a Midland railway bullhead set still in use today.
Of course if the evidence is not there you can just make a best guess and no one will be any the wiser.

[philip-griffiths]

There were guide rails attach to the sleepers on both sides of the line crossing Crumlin viaduct. Here is a fuzzy picture. Regards.

https://railuk.info/gallery/getimage.php?id=2101

Here is a better photo.

https://rcahmw.ibase.media/en/view-item ... 9745794761

[Noel]

Both photos of Crumlin Viaduct were taken well after nationalisation [that of the train is dated to June 1964, shortly before closure of the line, and the Coflein one to August 1964, between closure and demolition]. The line across the viaduct was singled by the GWR in 1928, with the single line initially on one side, then the other, then, finally, centrally in late 1929. Jones and Dunstone "The Vale of Neath Line" p151 has a photo of the viaduct deck with one running line and one truncated line, plus workmen sitting working on the metal deck. It's undated, but described as "repair work", and may actually be of the work being carried out when the line was singled in 1928. At that time the remaining running line had a third rail close inside the running rail nearer the centre of the viaduct. No other safety rails are visible in the photo.

[TonyMont]

Hi All,
Thank you very much I knew you would have the information. The drawing of the gathering rails was the one I needed, thanks Keith.
I have another photograph of a train on the bridge at close quarters it shows that the guide rails are set at the 2.625" or thereabouts I would post it but as we have just been reminded about copyright I will check first.

Further progress can now be made, brilliant.

Regards Tony.

[TonyMont]

Hi,

Here is a crop of the photo I mentioned. Thanks to Rail-online.co.uk

8f on New south viaduct.jpg

As can be seen the guide rails are very close to the running rails, and as I noticed if you zoom in the gathering rails can be seen below about the tenth wagon. Incidentely the rails (bullhead I assume) seem to have no chairs, which would be a smoother run for a derailed vehicle, any idea how they would be fixed?
Regards Tony.

[Noel]

Incidentely the rails (bullhead I assume) seem to have no chairs, which would be a smoother run for a derailed vehicle, any idea how they would be fixed?

I think it's there in the picture. The leftmost rail clearly has keys on the outside, and the lefthand rail of the right hand pair has keys on the inside. It looks to me as though there are three part chairs, with a spacer in the middle and keyed jaws for both rails, but on opposite sides. It also looks as though the inner rails are mounted slightly higher than the running rails.

[grovenor-2685]

I think the question related to the gathering rails, but they are to far away to make out details, there could be extended sleepers, hard to make out but the line of the sleeper ends does appear to widen out for the gathering rails.

[TonyMont]

Hi Noel and Keith,
Yes it was the gathering rails I was refering to, and yes the guide rails are 1" higher than the running rails, this detail and the flangeway measurement come from a 1928 LMS drawing. My friends set of drawings does not include the gathering rails.

I am pretty sure I will model the guide rails at the same level as the running rails, I can't see a simple way of raising them and would it show anyway, all suggestions gratefully received.

Regards Tony.

[TonyMont]

Hi All,
Well the deck and track for the new bridge are in and so is the new south junction, as you can see it does not follow the alignment of the prototype, my shed is not big enough . The new layout at Ambergate was laid out so that the tracks going south could be quadrupled and the original tunnel at this location was opened out, which must have been a mammoth task.

New bridge trackwork.jpg

I will need to extend the trackbed and ballast at the outside edge to accommodate the gathering rails.

New south jnc.jpg

Most of this junction will be under Buxton stations, so much testing will be carried out once the wiring is complete.The next job is to reconnect Buxton.

[Paul Cram]

Looking good. Is the next job to extend the shed then?

[TonyMont]

Hi Paul,
Thanks, I don't think I could get away with that.

[TonyMont]

Hi All,
So the three main routes into Buxton are in place. Coming down the hill towards us is the main Buxton North Western line from Stockport. The station will be behind the photographer. This connects to the Manchester leg of Ambergate.

IMG_3434.JPG

These two images show the connection to Buxton Midland to the left and the East curve going away to the right, this curve joins the North Western route at the further of the two junctions in the above photo.

IMG_3438.JPG

IMG_3438.JPG

Finally this is the Ashbourne line curving in from the lower left corner, it reaches its maximum elevation at the junction in the middle of the picture and then drops down to the right to meet the North Western route at the nearer double junction. The junction in the middle of the picture leads down to the North Western station.

IMG_3437.JPG

The relationship between these curves has been quite tricky, I am thinking that I don't want to lift any of this to glue it down, so I will ballast and fix at the same time, fingers crossed.