14mm wheelsets

[grovenor-2685]

This looks like a good bargain.
https://www.dccconcepts.com/product/14mm-36-17-75mm-p4-wheelsets/

[ChrisMitchell]

Saw these on Wednesday and ordered a pack

Chris

[Philip Hall]

Must be a bargain, all gone now!

Philip

[CeeJay60]

BEWARE!!

While I would like to think DCC Concepts have taken note of my previous complaint to them, and made use of the P4 wheel standards I provided, I suspect that they have not, and that this is a stock clearance exercise for them.

These are likely to be RP25 profile wheels (i.e. OO or EM) at the increased P4 back to back, NOT P4 profile wheels.

Maybe that will not be a problem for you if you have a lathe and the P4 wheel profile tool ...

As with all of the previous discussions about EM wheels on P4 track, they will probably run happily enough on plain track, but beware of derailments through complex points and crossings ...

[Philip Hall]

Looking at the photo I think they look like proper P4 profile as they look, with the brass axles, very like the nickel silver or stainless steel wheels obtainable from the likes of Branchlines, made in Australia. But it might be a stock photo. However, all is not lost if you have them, they’re not quite right but don’t have a form tool…

Robbed of the chance to try these, I have just turned down some brass Bachmann split axle wheels (from the Bulleid carriages). I didn’t use a form tool, merely turned 0.4mm off the back of the flange, 0.4mm off the front and 0.35mm off the flange depth, rounding off with a file. I didn’t touch the tyre surface (so no need for a collet in the Unimat) and the root radius is very close to P4 if not identical. They are perfectly concentric and run like a dream through pointwork.

Philip

[Winander]

I did have a scratch at the old bonce when I read "Superb free-running wheel profile slightly better than RP25-88. Super fine tolerances in manufacture of -0, +0.002″ but didn't bother to research RP25-88; but doesn't it sound grand

I'll wave my form tool at them when they arrive and let you know the verdict. Keep an eye out for white smoke.

Edit: Looked up RP25-88 here https://www.nmra.org/sites/default/files/standards/sandrp/pdf/RP-25%202009.07.pdf
First metric Tire [sic] width 0.088" = 2.235mm. Max P4 2mm. Flange depth 0.23" = 0.58mm. P4 0.3mm. Flange width 0.25" = 0.635mm. P4 0.36mm. IIRC a flangeway gauge is 0.68mm. To quote the standards "Deviation from any flange or railhead dimension may adversely affect performance".

I'll let you know how well they re-profile.

[Hardwicke]

If only someone made P4 wheels for the highly unusual HAA. Three hole disc one side of the axle, disc brake pads, the other. And 3'7".
Depending on whether they ran clockwise or anti clockwise from pit to power station could they be coal carousels?

[Porcy Mane]

If only someone made P4 wheels for the highly unusual HAA. Three hole disc one side of the axle, disc brake pads, the other. And 3'7".

Gibson standard 14mm coach wheels with the 3 holes drilled in for one side and Gibson 14mm conducting wheels on the other for early type brakes.
If you're needing the later renewable brake surface type of wheel, there's the Stenson 14mm disk etch.

A'scale-HAA-008-EditSm©PwD-2022.jpg

P

[grovenor-2685]

This looks like a good bargain.
https://www.dccconcepts.com/product/14mm-36-17-75mm-p4-wheelsets/

Not such a bargain I'm afraid. Packet arrived today, definately not P4 profile but have been set to P4 back to back which then means that they need a wider gauge for the flanges to sit between the rails! Wheel width 2.2mm. width of wheelset over flanges 18.9. Profile will probably be fine if they are regauged to EM.

[Philip Hall]

I think they could probably be turned down to P4, possibly without the form tool so long as they are a tight fit on the axles. Would be interesting to have a go.

Philip

[grovenor-2685]

They have one wheel bushed and the other a direct interference fit on the axle.
You could skim the backs to thin the flanges by holding on the tread, it would be very close to the chuck though for rounding off the flange. To skim the wheel fronts to narrow the tread would need to hold by the axle which means taking the bushed wheel off and using a temporary axle for that which would likely be a problem to keep tight while turning and to remount on the axle without wobble.

[Philip Hall]

Yes, sounds a bit awkward. Maybe it would be possible to skim off the back of each wheel in turn, then move the wheels along the axle a little so that the axle end can be gripped in the chuck, then each face in turn could be reduced, also the flange finally rounding off. Taking the very lightest of cuts might work. Leaving them a fraction over width is an idea, as then only the depth of the flange need be addressed. So long as clearances for slightly over width wheels could be accommodated and you can live with the discrepancy!

Hornby wheels are very suitable as the foot radius is also close or identical to P4, but they are not usually a tight enough fit on the axle, a similar problem. The Bachmann split axle type is easier because the half axle is a very tight fit in the wheel.

A bit of a shame given the look of the wheels and because you’ve just shelled out for them!

Philip

[ClikC]

I envision it being a nightmare to reprofile the wheels with the society form tool, as stainless steel work hardens as it's cut, meaning you need to cut under any hardness already machined in.

Regards

Matt

[zebedeesknees]

I envision it being a nightmare to reprofile the wheels with the society form tool, as stainless steel work hardens as it's cut, meaning you need to cut under any hardness already machined in.

Regards

Matt

I used to work for a catering equipment company, and found that not all stainless steels were the same.
But the rule I was given was "Dead slow, flood with lube, and you may have an edge that will cut again later"!
I found that when drilling with a speed control trigger, one pulse on it to increase the speed forced a change of the bit.

Ted.

[grovenor-2685]

I envision it being a nightmare to reprofile the wheels with the society form tool, as stainless steel work hardens as it's cut, meaning you need to cut under any hardness already machined in.
Regards
Matt

Not likely to be a problem with these wheels since they are nickel silver on brass axles, no steel or stainless steel involved.

[davebradwell]

One might grip the flange by a recess machined in soft jaws to skim off the front face. I'll also warn that I've found that gripping the tapered tread in a chuck gives a rather tenuous hold and care is required during subsequent machining or you will end up with rather less wheels than you started with. Best to use lathe to press insulated wheel back on in order to maintain squareness.

Jeremy's stepped collets would be the very thing to grip the flange, of course.

DaveB

[ClikC]

I used to work for a catering equipment company, and found that not all stainless steels were the same.
But the rule I was given was "Dead slow, flood with lube, and you may have an edge that will cut again later"!
I found that when drilling with a speed control trigger, one pulse on it to increase the speed forced a change of the bit.

Ted.

I was trained on 'Slow cutting speed, but high feed rate' for both Stainless, but agree not all "stainless steel" is stainless steel, we frequently ran into issues with Chinese import for this reason.

Not likely to be a problem with these wheels since they are nickel silver on brass axles, no steel or stainless steel involved.

Well that will make things a lot easier.

Regards

Matt

[Porcy Mane]

One might grip the flange by a recess machined in soft jaws to skim off the front face.
Jeremy's stepped collets would be the very thing to grip the flange, of course.

DaveB

I followed Mr Pendletons advice (MRJ 219) and turned up a tapered chucking ring (ring chuck for those that prefer) but added an additional internal bore to the outer face to grip tyres by the flange allowing the wheel to be held alternately with both front and rear surfaces to face outwards.

B'mann-04-Md'ing-021-EditSm.jpg

( Dave ,
Totally off topic: Duncan asked me to send you some info regarding springing of RIV buffers. I've been attempting to do so for the last month or so and had no reply so assume they haven't got to there intended destination.

Is this the type of thing you were looking for? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwRcj9-tZUY

With apologies to the original poster).

P

[colincraig]

If only someone made P4 wheels for the highly unusual HAA. Three hole disc one side of the axle, disc brake pads, the other.

I would be interested in any REAL evidence that HAA's had 3 hole disc wheels. As far as I am concerned it is a figment of imagination.
I looked at this in some detail prior to converting Phil Eames HAA wagons to P4 for Calcutta Sidings, and subsequently started marketing brake discs for both the discs as part of the wheel centre and the Bolt on version - Now available from Stenson Models.
My interpretation was that all the original wheels had the discs as part of the wheel centre as was also the case on the prototype freightliner wagons. As only one wheel per axle had a caliper the wheels could be simply reversed if the disc part was worn or damaged. I do have photographic evidence of this.
Early disc brakes had much softer pads before the banning of asbestos so the life expectancy of these wheel discs was quite reasonable. Those who had cars with disc brakes in the 60's and 70's will perhaps recollect that disc replacement was quite unusual. I remember changing the pads 3 times before the disc became an issue.

Colin

[Philip Hall]

I found some pictures of the results of my skimming of the DCC wheels. For testing they were mounted in an old Bachmann LMS bogie. Top is as supplied, left bogie is as skimmed off the back and flanges reduced, and right proper Ultrascale. I didn’t touch the tyre surface or the front of the wheels, hence concentrity (and they are, properly concentric) is not affected. Admittedly the profile is not perfect but runs beautifully.

Two slight problems; the insulated wheels wobble as supplied but are able to be corrected, and the brass axles are rather blunt so there was a bit of hacking in the bearing ‘dimples’ to make them run freely. Future ones will use spare decent pinpoint axles.

I used the same methods on the Bachmann Bulleid carriages and on a Hornby van with similarly excellent results.

Philip

IMG_5629.jpeg

[Porcy Mane]

I would be interested in any REAL evidence that HAA's had 3 hole disc wheels. As far as I am concerned it is a figment of imagination.

There you go.

HOP AB by Kevin Lane, on Flickr

I've purposely linked to the largest file size so that you may zoom in on the wheelsets.

By pure coincidence, I spent 10 minutes this morning chatting to the man that was involved with building the two prototypes at the Darlington Special Development Unit. He also turned up any wheelsets that needed truing & re-balancing prior to fitting to the first batches of Shildon built HAA's along with "tuning" the original profile burner used to cut out the sides.

Hth,

P

[Daddyman]

Plenty of evidence on Paul Bartlett's site too: https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brhaapost80

What was that about "picking holes (real or imaginary)" on another thread? They don't look imaginary here...

[colincraig]

Thank you Mr Porcy Mane. A superb detailed photo with lovely B&W detail.
The wagons here are from the first batch built at Shildon, so perhaps are not necessarily typical of the later builds. Certainly the multiple photos I have viewed, including those in David Monk Steel excellent book, do not confirm this 3 hole disc arrangement. The switch to 2 wheels with brake discs must have occurred subsequently. I stand corrected as far as early wagons are concerned.
The attached photo was one I found on the internet during my original researches - originator unknown

Plenty of evidence on Paul Bartlett's site too: https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brhaapost80

O dear, I have touched a raw nerve! Am I not allowed to ask for REAL evidence in the pursuit of the truth?

They don't look imaginary here...

Yes, lots of photos, but I fail to see any evidence of 3 hole disc wheels. That was why I was asking for real evidence as Paul Bartletts website was carefully surveyed in the past and failed to give me a definitive answer. This included my own viewing of actual wagons, which clearly did not have 3 hole discs
Another good reason for avoiding this Forum.

Colin

[Daddyman]

O dear, I have touched a raw nerve! Am I not allowed to ask for REAL evidence in the pursuit of the truth? ... Another good reason for avoiding this Forum.
Colin

Oh dear - that's some serious thin skin there! There are photos on Paul's site of wagons from both the early and the later batches with holes clearly visible in the wheels. Here's a crop to make it easier:

Screenshot (2559).jpg

Happy to circle the hole in red if you need it.

[bécasse]

I wonder if the answer to the conundrum is BR's erstwhile staff suggestions scheme. The concept of putting a disc on both wheels (when it is only used on one) so that the wheel set can "simply" be dropped out and turned in the event of excessive wear occurring sounds typical of the genius that sometimes emerged from the suggestions scheme - simple to do and with relatively little first cost, it may well have been adopted either relatively early in the construction programme or, perhaps more likely, when the progression of tyre wear on the fleet meant that replacement wheel sets started to be required in some numbers.