New Product - British Finescale B7 Turnout Kits in P4

[Jeremy Good]

Neil

Sorry, they are not available with 9ft sleepers. They needed to be commercially viable for British Finescale to produce them and as such adopt a similar sleeper base to their other products.

Jeremy

[Martin Wynne]

Sorry, they are not available with 9ft sleepers. They needed to be commercially viable for British Finescale to produce them and as such adopt a similar sleeper base to their other products.

Hi Neil,

If you need 9ft timbers, we are now getting close to having Templot plug track finally ready, at least for turnouts -- any angle or radius. If you have your own/access to/friends with 3D printers, you could print your own base with 9ft timbers and use the Finetrax rail parts in it. This is a 1:5 turnout with a pre-grouping style 9ft straight switch in 00:



This is a C switch in EM:



The timber ties and base connector clips all get lost under the ballast, including fixing pins/screws, wiring connections, switch drive sliders, etc.

Material cost less than 50p, Templot and ready-to-use printer files free, but of course you need the printers first.

cheers,

Martin.

[Neil Smith]

Thanks Martin, I have been watching your developments with interest. And I guess that the British Finescale rail parts could be utilised with your printed chairs and bases....

All food for thought!!

All the best

Neil

[Martin Wynne]

Thanks Martin, I have been watching your developments with interest. And I guess that the British Finescale rail parts could be utilised with your printed chairs and bases....

Hi Neil,

Yes -- you can change the settings in Templot to fit the chairs to any rail section. Wayne mentioned the possibility of making the rail parts available separately, although I don't know if he has done anything about it.

Eventually you should be able to make your own rail parts easily. Templot will provide the printer files to make filing jigs for the same angle as any template. This one is for 1:5:



The cost of the toughened PLA for that (same material as the timber bases) is about 90p. They are good for filing a couple of dozen vees, the file skids across the plastic surface. But if they do wear out you would just print a new one.

cheers,

Martin.

[Neil Smith]

Thanks again Martin.

I do have my own metal filling jigs, which I have not yet had time to use, so in theory I can make my own blades and crossings, but having a ready made option is no bad thing if the price point matches the convenience/beats the personal manufacturing ability.

If Wayne were to sell the rail parts separately that could be of interest for folks who want less "standard" chairs, etc. as well as sleeper lengths as previously discussed.

All the best

Neil

[Terry Bendall]

They are good for filing a couple of dozen vees, the file skids across the plastic surface. But if they do wear out you would just print a new one.

Alternatively you can buy the case hardened steel jigs sold by the stores which will last for ever - or at least as liong as most of us will want one.

I do have my own metal filling jigs, which I have not yet had time to use, so in theory I can make my own blades and crossings, but having a ready made option is no bad thing if the price point matches the convenience/beats the personal manufacturing ability.

Alternatively you can file your own vees and blades without any sort of jig which not too long ago was the only option apart from buying ready made ones. It is not a difficult job.

What is the scale length of the sleepers - and presuming they will be targeted at the Grouping and BR or later eras, is there any likelihood of 9' sleepering being offered at some point for those of us who are interested in the dim and distant past?

Sorry, they are not available with 9ft sleepers.

Glue a piece of plastic on the end of each sleeper?

Terry Bendall

[Jol Wilkinson]

Martyn's initiate is interesting for those with the equipment but I know of only one modelling friend/acquaintance with access to a 3D SLA resin printer (it belongs to his teenage son) and no-one with a filament printer. Or you could just build them the old fashioned way, without having to buy two 3D printers.

The time consuming part, in my recent experience, is filing the switches and Vee rails. Cutting the timbers and threading chairs or drilling/punching holes for brass track rivets is relatively quick. Ready made vees, common crossings and switches are available from C&L, but are expensive. I was fortunate in being able to borrow the Society filing jigs from a fellow AG member. I am sure that there are plenty out there which could be borrowed - even rented /bought s/h - from fellow AG or Society members as they are probably not in regular daily use.

The Finetrack point kit is a cost effective option and hopefully the B7 will be followed by others. Too late for me though, I am just finishing the last of the eighteen new points for my permanent layout.

[Will L]

...The time consuming part, in my recent experience, is filing the switches and Vee rails. Cutting the timbers and threading chairs or drilling/punching holes for brass track rivets is relatively quick...

Subjective experiences being what they are, I would have said exactly the opposite. Having learned how to file up point components when there was no other choice, I've always found that a quick and easy process that only takes a few minuets to achieve. Cutting a drilling the sleepers is the job that I find take more time than I want to spend on it.

While I certainly I wont be spending anything on filling jigs, I do use a "do it yourself" jig made of sleeper strip glued on a flat surface to give the required angle. I use it to check the angle of my filling and to assemble the V.

[grovenor-2685]

While I certainly I wont be spending anything on filling jigs, I do use a "do it yourself" jig made of sleeper strip glued on a flat surface to give the required angle. I use it to check the angle of my filling and to assemble the V.

See http://www.norgrove.me.uk/points.html

[ClikC]

Thanks Martin, I have been watching your developments with interest. And I guess that the British Finescale rail parts could be utilised with your printed chairs and bases....

Hi Neil,

Yes -- you can change the settings in Templot to fit the chairs to any rail section. Wayne mentioned the possibility of making the rail parts available separately, although I don't know if he has done anything about it.

Eventually you should be able to make your own rail parts easily. Templot will provide the printer files to make filing jigs for the same angle as any template. This one is for 1:5:



The cost of the toughened PLA for that (same material as the timber bases) is about 90p. They are good for filing a couple of dozen vees, the file skids across the plastic surface. But if they do wear out you would just print a new one.

cheers,

Martin.

Hi Martin,

I assume these jigs are applicable only to bullhead rail at present? Can we look forward to Flatbottom jigs? I’ve been thinking about how I’d achieve the 1:8.5 angles I’ll require for Bog Junction.

Regards

[Terry Bendall]

Can we look forward to Flatbottom jigs?

The jigs sold by the Society can be used for filing crossing vees on flat bottom rail but they won't work for blades. However blades made from flat bottom rail can be easily filed by hand as Tony Wilkings has shown see
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7455&p=83548&hilit=flat+bottom+turnouts#p83548

I have used this method and it works very well.

Terry Bendall

[Hardwicke]

These are a welcome addition to an almost RTR point, but doesn't have the flexibility of an Exacoscale or ply and rivet.

[Hardwicke]

Sorry, they are not available with 9ft sleepers. They needed to be commercially viable for British Finescale to produce them and as such adopt a similar sleeper base to their other products.

Hi Neil,

If you need 9ft timbers, we are now getting close to having Templot plug track finally ready, at least for turnouts -- any angle or radius. If you have your own/access to/friends with 3D printers, you could print your own base with 9ft timbers and use the Finetrax rail parts in it. This is a 1:5 turnout with a pre-grouping style 9ft straight switch in 00:

The timber ties and base connector clips all get lost under the ballast, including fixing pins/screws, wiring connections, switch drive sliders, etc.

Material cost less than 50p, Templot and ready-to-use printer files free, but of course you need the printers first.

cheers,

Martin.

Now this is a step forward..... considers the F32 point, well I seem to remember that's what it worked out as

[kelly]

Martyn's initiate is interesting for those with the equipment but I know of only one modelling friend/acquaintance with access to a 3D SLA resin printer (it belongs to his teenage son) and no-one with a filament printer. Or you could just build them the old fashioned way, without having to buy two 3D printers.

The time consuming part, in my recent experience, is filing the switches and Vee rails. Cutting the timbers and threading chairs or drilling/punching holes for brass track rivets is relatively quick. Ready made vees, common crossings and switches are available from C&L, but are expensive. I was fortunate in being able to borrow the Society filing jigs from a fellow AG member. I am sure that there are plenty out there which could be borrowed - even rented /bought s/h - from fellow AG or Society members as they are probably not in regular daily use.

The Finetrack point kit is a cost effective option and hopefully the B7 will be followed by others. Too late for me though, I am just finishing the last of the eighteen new points for my permanent layout.

I think it is fair to say that the new Society kit and Martin's Templot efforts cater to different ends of the same market in terms of P4. The kit is ideal for getting started and being cost effective. Martin's method is ideal if you have both access to the ability to print (and room for said printers of course, plus for the resin the required washing and curing facilities, it can be quite messy too) and more work to get a usable point if you don't use the finetrack parts as a starting point. Both are valued additions to what can be done I think.

Perhaps the society could have a post on the forum of people willing to offer to print files from templot? how workable that might be is difficult to say, but perhaps worth some thought.

[Winander]

the required washing and curing facilities, it can be quite messy too

I thought it was messy, but this video from James Walters who uses water washable resin clearly scuppers that assertion. This link commences at the washing stage https://youtu.be/3Qa16XMaRtA?t=997

[DougN]

It is a little surprising how many people actually have the capacity to do 3d printing. A mate of mine has said a number of times he will print for me in resin or PLA/ABS if I ever want too.

As usual my lack of time to do things cuts into the ability to draw up what I need.

I keep thinking about these kits. As the "generic" branchline/ secondary line would use these rather a lot... only if you needed other specialized trackwork, Diamonds, 3 way, Slips etc would it preclude their use solely on a project. I suspect if a railway company has a choice they would like to stick to relatively standard switches on costs ground. Is it us as modellers who like the other more complicated track formations?

[Terry Bendall]

I’ve been thinking about how I’d achieve the 1:8.5 angles I’ll require for Bog Junction.

I shall be doing a demonstration at Wells on hand built track, with both bull head and flat bottiom rail covered so a quick lesson on how to do any track building task can be provided.

Terry Bendall

[ClikC]

I’ve been thinking about how I’d achieve the 1:8.5 angles I’ll require for Bog Junction.

I shall be doing a demonstration at Wells on hand built track, with both bull head and flat bottiom rail covered so a quick lesson on how to do any track building task can be provided.

Terry Bendall

Hi Terry,

Not 100% I can make the trip to Wells on the Saturday, but if I do I will certainly have chat with you about it.

Regards

[Martin Wynne]

Hi Martin,

I assume these jigs are applicable only to bullhead rail at present? Can we look forward to Flatbottom jigs? I’ve been thinking about how I’d achieve the 1:8.5 angles I’ll require for Bog Junction.

Hi Matt,

For flat-bottom you need a wider slot for the foot in one half of the jig. I shall be including that option in the Templot jigs, although I haven't tested how well it works. However, you will then need 2 jigs, one for right-hand angles and one for left-hand angles. 1:8.5 is no problem, Templot will soon create the jigs for any angle you care to enter, or the angle which matches a track template.

I have this very day at long last finished the coding for the crossing chairs, and will be releasing a Templot update shortly. It means it is now possible to create plug track for a full turnout, of any size or radius.

That means I can turn my attention to the filing jigs. At present only 1:5 is available as a proof of concept. Very shortly the option to create any angle will be possible. Bear in mind that you do need an FDM printer or a friend with one -- you can't make a filing jig out of resin, it won't resist filing! I use toughened PLA for the jigs, specifically eSUN PLA Plus (same as for the timbering bases). It's very difficult to file, the file skids across the surface. (The only way to shape it is with abrasives, preferably used wet.) I'm sure other brands are much the same, but I haven't tested them:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07FQ75QG2

1kg reel would make about 25 jigs (very rough guess).

cheers,

Martin.

[Jeremy Good]

Getting back to the point of this thread, the British Finescale P4 Turnout Kits, I understand that there are now some “in the wild” and ready to be built.

The Instructions and a P4 construction template will be posted on the website soon and I’ll attach a link.

In the interim a pdf of the instructions can be found here :

Standard Turnout Instructions.pdf

And a P4 Template here:

P4_B7_TEMPLATE.PDF

Jeremy

[Martin Wynne]

The Instructions and a P4 construction template will be posted on the website soon and I’ll attach a link.

In the interim a pdf of the instructions can be found here : Standard Turnout Instructions.pdf

And a P4 Template here:
P4_B7_TEMPLATE.PDF

The template is in fact identical to a P4 B-7 RAM with regular-pattern V-crossing in Templot. This means you can use Templot to design track plans, print templates, make gently curved templates, etc., for these kits if you prefer instead of downloading the official kit template.

Here is the official kit template in Templot with a P4 B-7 aligned over it:



The BGS3 shapes file for this is available on the Templot Club forum should you need it

There are a couple of points to note:

1. Wayne has used the timbers centralized option rather than the more usual ends in-line option for square-on timbering:



You can see the difference in the screenshot at some of the timber ends. This will be fixed now in the kit's timbering base, so there isn't any option to change it.

2. The position of the flare bends in the wing and check rails is marked on the kit template in red. But not the position of the set bend, which is perhaps the more important. I have added it in the BGS3 file, but of course it is marked anyway on Templot templates if you print those instead.

cheers,

Martin.

[Jeremy Good]

Thanks Martin.

The British Finescale template is useful as it shows where the rail needs to be bent/cut. Apart from that the turnouts can be built without the need to overlay the timbers on a Template.

Jeremy

[CornCrake]

But you can design a gently curved B7 template in Templot, print it out and by judicious removal of webs from the Britich Finescale turnout match it to that template. The curved Templot template is useful for judging the correct length of the switch blades. It is possible to use these kits even if you have a gentle contraflexure curved turnout.
When cutting the webs I found that a piercing saw was best rather than trying to snip or cut with a knife.
Steve

[Andy G]

You can also use the template within Templot to plan the whole layout, i.e. Templot and the new turnouts are compatible.

[Paul Willis]

These are a welcome addition to an almost RTR point, but doesn't have the flexibility of an Exactoscale or ply and rivet.

To use an obvious pun, that's not the point...

Once someone new to P4 has become confident and familiar with our flavour of finescale modelling, then perhaps they will progress to other techniques. In the meantime, they will be an excellent introduction and a great way of getting something built that is almost certainly accurate and quick to build without errors and flaws.

if anyone is concerned that the use of a "standard" point will restrict imagination, or constrict designs for layouts in a way that don't flow realistically, consider this layout exhibited at Larkrail on Saturday...

Larkrail 23 (2).JPG

Larkrail 23 (4).JPG

Larkrail 23 (3).JPG

Built using four of the EMGS RTR B6 turnouts. You'd have to look very hard to realise that. The giveaway for me was the standard Peco tiebars. Plus, as an EMGS member, an awareness of the competition to build a small layout using them...

Sometimes it's easier to work with the grain, rather than don a hairshirt and work against it...

Best,
Paul