Meeting Reports 2010

[Will L]

Meeting Jan 10th 2010

Doing it for money

Despite the best winter snow effects for years and the widely spread nature of our membership, we had a good turn out at member Adrian Prescott's home. Adrian is one of those who makes a living from our hobby, building locos and other stock to order. So, as well as providing the customary number of brews and a very nice slab of fruitcake, Adrian talked us through the trials, tribulations and pleasures of being a professional model maker.

Adrian builds in a variety of scales and gauges. He has a fund of stories about things that have, and haven't, worked, and where kit manufactures do, and don't, make his life easier. One notable item on his workbench was an O gauge loco. This had a turned brass boiler. To a 4mm man this was big and heavy, having walls about 4 mm thick in places. My 50w soldering iron suddenly paled into insignificance. Thoughts about how you might adapt a thermionic lance to do soldering did stray through the mind, but Adrian explained that he was using a blow torch.

He is an adept painter too, and spent some time explaining his technique with pen, brush and do it yourself transfers.

He was happy to answer all our questions and was very open about what his services cost. As I am somebody who gets his pleasure from growing his own, it has never occurred to me just how much people are willing to pay to have the job done for them. Even then, if I ever think of turning pro I will have to speed up a bit if I want to make a living at it.

Clearly a tidy man, Adrian's workshop is pictured below and is a fitting compliment to the rest of his home.

A man's place of work.

In addition to the main entertainment, various other modelling projects were discussed and displayed. We also went over our arrangement for Knutsford's next two outings, at Stafford and Scale 4 North.

[Will L]

The Stafford Show

As we were due to take Knutsford East Junction to the Stafford show, we decided this would be our February Meeting.

It was a good show, the organises can be congratulated for their efforts. Judging by the number of visitors visible to us on the other side of the barrier they may well be happy with attendance figures too. We liked the venue, the Staffordshire County Show Ground, which had some significant plus points, see below, was pleasantly warm on a cool day, had plenty of space for lots of layouts and nice wide aisles.

To illustrate our weekend, here comes some pictures with appropriate captions. For some reason these pictures get trimmed down the right and side by the forums software, but if you click on the picture you get a bigger unclipped version.

This picture illustrates one of those good points about the venue. Just look how far we had to hump the layout from the cars we brought it in.
It also shows one of those things you can't normally see. The metal subframe which supports the layout. It is a metal marvel and replaces something similar but much less professional looking made of Dexion. It is all Dick's own work which may explain why he's standing there looking, deservedly, please with himself.

Another thing the public doesn't normally get to see is the inside of the fiddle yards. We have two. As I spent most of the weekend looking closely at this view, I thought it only fair you should all get the same pleasure.
This shot illustrates just how much vertical separation we get on a relatively short layout, between the branch, at the back in this view, and the main line.
It also shows the cassette system we use. There are separate small sections for the locos and longer ones for the trains. The objective is to avoid all unnecessary handling of the stock. The subtle bit is that, for historic reasons, there are two different lengths of the train cassettes. Of course, the longer trains don't fit on the short cassettes. It all adds to the fun.

Whenever Knutsford goes on show we try to ensure there are new things to see. On this occasion one thing was this pair of bolster wagons, the prototype was produced during World War 2 by converting two mineral wagons. It was intended for carrying long objects, bits of planes in crates we suspect. This very nice model was produced for us by our far northern member Peter Heald. Here, Peter, is proof we made good use of it. All we now need is an appropriate load which, rumour has it, Ron is to produce.
Also new was an LMS Ex LNWR 2-4-2 tank on the autotrain. This appears in the background of the previous photo but otherwise escaped more detailed documentation. A 1P it is, but I'm afraid I can't remember whether its wheels are 4'6" or 5'6". The LMS isn't really my thing.

This isn't new, but I like the picture, even if at this level of magnification the weathering may leave a little to be desired. Mostly its a reminder of when I was fretting out the five layers of 10 thou brass that make up each gate. I suppose it proves I may have some modicum of metal working skills myself.

As I remember it, there was never a time on Saturday when the public wasn't standing two deep at the barrier. However they say the camera never lies, even if the picture, suitably photoshoped does! So obviously there was one quiet moment. Even the guy in front of the layout, Dick again, is a Crewe Area group member and they are enjoying a chat. It had been a long hard day.

[Will L]

Doing Business At Tony's

This months meeting was held at Tony M's in darkest Staffordshire. There was a good turn out with 10 members, perhaps because this was the first proper meeting for a couple of months. It was a business meeting rather than anything else, and in addition to consuming tea/coffee and choclate biscuits we were able to have a useful discussion about a number of items.

Firstly there was the cornucopia of exhibition invites Knutsford East attracted at the Stafford show last month. These should keep us busy well into 2012.

Then we discussed possible extensions to the layout which may or may not grace some of these future shows, it is possible the layout will get longer. Then we moved on to modifications for the fiddle yard boards to give a bit more room, see the Stafford show posting above, and the need to add a few more fiddle yard cassettes.

Then we considered the program for the next few months, and, when David comes up with the promised newsletter, I will publish the salient features under Next Meetings on here.

Finally we discussed the details of our trip to see Mr Waterman's wonderful 0 Gauge railway at the end of this month, and the arrangements for taking Knutsford to Scalefour North In April. For those that haven't worked it out, the publicity poster for this years show features Knutsford's track work and John S's Pom-pom last seen in MRJ 194.

These postings are normally illustrated by an appropriate picture or two, but I regret this meeting turned out not to be that photogenic. I did try, but as far too many members gave the impression of being asleep in Tony's comfortable arm chairs, or in one case a not quite so comfortable dining chair, that I decided to give pictures a miss this month.

[Will L]

Visiting Mr Waterman

For some time we have been trying to arrange a visit to Pete Waterman's railway which lives in a barn in the wilds of Cheshire. Having exercised our contacts through the Manchester club we managed to get a date in late March. Not our normal monthly meeting date, but we still had a good turn out of 10 members.

Yes OK this isn't a P4 layout and, given that is 7mm scale, it is not sale 7 either, but it is impressive. Along one side you have this attractive country section.

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The view across the other side. The main station area is a model of Leamington Spa, covering both the LMS station (just visible on the left close to the camera) and the GWR stations (still on the left but further away). Despite the current lack of station building, the GWR station was recognisable for anybody who knows it today, from the bridges to the south of the station. This would be an impressive array of track in 4mm, more so in 7mm. Unfortunately I had to reduce the area covered by this image to avoid the moire effect ruining the picture of the track work at the resolution available. There is a lot more trackwork to both left and right.

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This shot was taken down the county section and should give you some idea of quite how big the layout is. Remember this is O gauge. There is a back scene running along the left of this section which hides another station which runs parallel to this section.

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Pete is a busy man and he has an enthusiastic team who help him build and run the layout. We weren't expecting him to be at home but he was and as well as watching the excellent model railway, Pete was on hand to give us lot of details about the layout, and his other railway enterprises.

The railway at this point (south end of Leamington) disappears into a big fiddle yard which runs round one end of the barn.

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A good day was had by all and we would like to thank Pete for his hospitality.

[Will L]

Knutsford Does Scalefour North

Not really a meeting, but certainly an Area Group event, it was a great pleasure to take Knutsford out to Wakefield. We felt this was a really good show, and a fine opportunity to pick up those special little bits and pieces that the great trade support we get at this event makes available. However, the bill in my pocket suggests that the bits I picked up weren't all that little. One thing I learned was that the lady behind the stand at Eileen's (not Eileen these days of course) is a trained first aider and did a very good job of patching up my finger when I'd stuck my scalpel significantly further in than usual.

An innovation this year was that the traditional Saturday night dinner was held in "The Wetherby Whaler", a rather up market chippy. The food, you can guess what it was, was excellent of its type and a pleasant evening seemed to be had by all. Conveniently it was an easy walk from the hotel by the road, and only half that distance if you discovered the short cut via the canal.

The layouts on view were to my mind excellent, though it was a bit of a surprise to find that Knutsford (just post war but before BR) was the close-est thing to modern image on view. Unless, that is, you count the Judith Edge stand. Our thanks are due to the organising team for another job well done, and for the invite!

A few more annotated pictures of Knutsford follow, I'm sure more pictures of the rest of the show will appear else where quite soon.

Each time we go out there are always a few changes, this time the layout is longer! A whole 140mm. The extra length is all in, or under, this bridge so there is no more visible railway than before. The bridge models what is now the A50 where it crosses the railway.

Previously the rather nicely modelled station entrance and ticket office was so close to the end scene it was impossible to get a good look at it. By adding the bridge in front it is possible to get a better, if still not perfect, view. The extra track length is effectively in the fiddle yard. We had great fun telling the organising team the layout was longer than we had told them, before admitting how little the extension was. Sorry guys, couldn't resist.

One of our number is also a bus enthusiast, so the bus is right in its time and place. He's also keen on proper whethering, hence the bus roof, which reminds me of the top of the cooker in my youngest son's student flat!

The camera never lies? In reality, that telegraph pole is quite definitely vertical.

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Another significant change is not obvious to the punters out front, as one of the fiddleyards has been widened to make stock handling a fair bit easier. Though if your like me, and spend quite a lot of time with your nose over other peoples fiddleyard back walls, it isn't hard to spot. You can see how much more spacious the new arrangement is by referring back a couple of stories on this topic where a picture of the old arrangement is given.

In this picture all of our CLC coaching stock seems to have gravitated to this end, to say nothing of 2/5's of the LMS coaches too. The freight stock is all down the other end. Perhaps the guy down there is having a problem coupling wagons!

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The last change is the long awaited arrival of a water supply for our loco's. Phil has been generating these rather impressive CLC water cranes for a while now, but at last here they are, complete with a fire devil each. A trifle phallic but well worth the wait.

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Click to See Matters Arising

[Will L]

A Trip on the Cushions

For our May Meeting David through open his home to the eight other members who turned up. It was a particular pleasure to see Peter Heald there. These days he is normally to be found well north of the boarder where the oil comes from but he joined us for the day while he was south visiting old haunts. The meeting had no set theme but we did have good company, comfortable chairs, hot and cold running drinks, chocolate biscuits and a number of things to cogitate over. What more could one ask

First of all Tony showed us a Templot plan of his proposed layout based on Buxton, but including within it the triangular junction that is the bulk of the existing Ambergate layout that he acquired and converted to P4 last year. For previous stories about Ambergate see here and here. This new plan more than doubles the layout area of Ambergate and includes at least one more triangular junction, or possibly more, its hard to tell.

Two things sprang to mind. The first was relief that Tony proposes the use of DCC. Getting the right polarity of current to all the right places on interconnected triangular double junctions in DC sounds just a mite tricky. The existing electronics of Ambergate already makes your head hurt just thinking about it, and just what is that other button for. The second thought was to remember Martin Goodall's assertion, else where on the S4Webforum, that it might be as quick to draw a layout manually than learn and use Templot. Sorry Martin but I just don't believe you were considering plans of this size. Not to mention exactly what would happen when you'd drawn all the way round and found the ends didn't quite meet without the last curve exceeding your minimum radius; or if it turned out that the builder had managed to build the layout room an inch or so narrower than spec.

Anyway we wish you well Tony and we await progress with interest.

After that we had a discussion about current plans to further extend Knutsford. We were in general agreement we should go ahead, though the absolute final decision awaits a plan for the new bit from Dick, who I suspect may well use paper and pencil. Expect to see the results in a couple of yaers time.

We discussed CAG supporting the society by manning the P4 Stand at the Manchester show in the autumn. This also met with general approval.

Then various other discussions broke out. At our end of the room we spent some time trying to diagnose why the chassis for an L&Y 2-4-2T belonging to Peter appeared to be binding slightly when running in one direction and not when running the other way. Various possibilities were aired, including noting that these were Sharman wheels, and was Peter absolutely certain all the crank pins where in the right place and at a true right angle to the wheel face. One solution was not much in favour, that is reaming the holes in the conrods out a bit till it runs OK. I'm afraid it is not in the nature of the CAG to be happy with remedies like this. It did all lead to a discussion about quartering angles which I will not take further here as I quite like the idea of airing it else where on the forum.

By now the five o'clock meeting close time was well past, and as a feature of parking at David's house is the Last In First Out nature of his drive, it was time for me to go home. For all I know there rest of them are still there enjoying the crack.

[Will L]

Venturing Between the Frames

Our June meeting was held at Phil R's house in Stoke on Trent. This is the first time we have been to Phil's, as far as I'm aware. Despite him providing accurate directions at least two of us managed to get ourselves conclusively lost, despite the rout being "obvious" when you know it. None the less, 11 members were there in good time to enjoy a meeting who's theme was "Inside Valve Gear". As well as a sufficiency of seats and the necessary floor space, Phil provided the brews, chocolate biscuits, and this above and beyond the call of duty, cup cakes. Our thanks are due to him for his hospitality.

Pursuant on our theme, quite a range of inside valve gear was on display. Much of this had a GWR flavour, coming, as it did, from David B's collection, but we also had a mostly completed Brassmasters 4F by John S, and a separate and fully functional driving axle assembly built by Tony S from the Brassmasters etch. The models presented included some with cosmetic and some with working gear, though none of it was reversible! There was even one with a fully featured crank Axel. Much inspection of models both static and in motion led to the view that what ever you did some compromises would be necessary, and the question, why would you want to get into this at all?

The answers seemed to go something like this
1. Because it's there. I am quite persuaded by this argument in general, various bits of my loco's tend to fit with this philosophy, but it was quite clear that on some prototypes the inside gear was all but invisible. The High level pannier chassis springs to mind. Does make you wonder why we fail to model the inside of, say, the smoke box. This discussion led in turn to a little contra concern from Dick about things that are visible but are often poorly represented. He had ash-pans in mind.

2. Because on some Loco's there is a yawning great gap between the frames that does need something in it. Only too true I'm afraid though there are graduations between this and the previous argument. But then you get into the discussion as to whether the gear should be dummy or seen to be working, even if not reversible.

3. Working inside gear really requires a real crank axle which is engineering beyond the kitchen table. So I, at least, wont be going there. The Brassmaster gear cheats a bit and uses eccentrics. The resultant lump of assorted bits on the driving axle left you wondering if the gear would allow full movement of a sprung/compensated suspension, presumably the theoretical answer is yes.

4. Visible dummy gear can be disappointingly static, but possibly not significantly worse than outside valve gear in permanent mid gear and valve spindles which are either stationary or going the wrong way. It does appear to be possible to arrange a U shaped hole through the middle of that mass of detail that allows springing or compensation to work.

A fairly cruel blow up of the gear on the Brassmaster 4F installed below the boiler. This particular installation is non functional.

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This is the Brassmaster inside gear driving axle assembly. Complicated, a tight fit between the frames, and as assembled here, functional.

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Intermingled with out themed discussion was further talk about the proposed Knutsford extension. Dick had a pencil sketch of the proposal. Among its features will be a freight loop and a private siding including a further double set of trap points which should amuse those interested in the finer points of track work construction.

Future meetings also got further consideration. Firstly we agreed that, given good weather, our July meeting will be thrown open to our WAGs (this is Cheshire!) and will include a cream tea. Secondly Adrian went over what he planed to cover in his painting and lining session in August. He is expecting to allow us hands on experience and so he wants us to turn up with prepared samples to work with. It all sounds like fun, and just shows you what a good idea area groups can be.

[Will L]

Crewe Cream Cakes and Chat

With a lovely sunny day to go at, our July garden meeting at chez Tony went ahead as planned. We had had our eyes on the clear skies all week, could this last. As the weekend dawned with sunshine and good forecasts, we were able to pass the good news to the wags. Yes they were invited to our meeting and there would be cream scones for tea!

What the day was all about!

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Well I hope the ladies did enjoy the day, which did tend to exhibit an Us and Them tendency. Perhaps two gazebos spaced out across the lawn had that affect, but the shade was very welcome. We are English dam it. At least my own wife did seem to have had an enjoyable afternoon, but I’m afraid this report is going to be silent on what the ladies found to talked about.

Us and Them

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Can’t say the gentleman’s table went too deeply into discussing railway modelling either, but we did get to go over the arrangements for the next couple of meetings. Then David was able to show off his own latest purchase. This was the Expo Tools Portable Spray Booth, which was interesting, particularly as our August meeting at Adrian’s will be a painting and lining teach in. See our July/August meetings posting else where. We were also able to discuss our next trip away which will be on the 24th July, when we will be paying a return visit to John Brighton’s train set in Sheffield.

Mostly though, we enjoyed the strawberry and cream scones, which were excellent, and eaten in a very pleasant setting. For both the scones and the setting we owe Alison and Tony a big vote of thanks.

So what was that sitting in the middle of the table?

Seems Tony is thinking about a garden railway. This is live steam.

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[Will L]

A first class return trip to Brighton.

You may remember that last year we had a very enjoyable outing to Sheffield to see and play with John Brighton’s Millhouses. Clearly we didn’t disgrace ourselves too badly last time, as we were invited to return, and the convenient date was 24th July. So 6 of us duly went, and another enjoyable day was spent. I’m not going to waist new words on describing things I documented last time, but, if you want the background on our previous visit and Millhouses itself, you can read all about it by clicking here.

It seems that John has recently completed a significant rewire to improve something technical in his DCC set up. This was apparently successful as the electronics worked in the impeccable way with which we have become accustomed. However, much of the stock had not been run for some months while the electrical upgrade was in progress. So, after a brief flirtation with John’s timetable, we fell to shaking down the assembled trains to find the ones which had developed the need for attention over the months of idleness, and those that still worked with the accustomed perfection. To be honest I think John found this a little frustrating, but we had soon identified those things that required his attentions and started running an intensive service with those that remained trouble free.

Millhouses is a big layout, Tony M and I rapidly decided that running one train on each of the up and down goods roads that we were controlling was not challenging enough. As with DCC it is perfectly possible to run more than one train on one track, we both soon had two trains circulating. Without outside interference this wasn’t to hard to achieve, but you have to take into account the fact that David and Don were happily shunting the yard, which means crossing the running roads every now and again. So the running line signals, set by the station signal man, weren’t always clear. It took us a while to work out which of the numerous buttons on the controller allowed us to switch control back and forth between our two trains reliably and quickly. I’m afraid several SPADs were recorded, but fortunately nothing worse than hurt pride occurred as a consequence.

John helps the Crewe gang dispose of the lunch Mrs B had so thoughtfully provided for us. The whole occasion, held alfresco, being much enhanced by the perfect whether and John’s well tended garden. The fiddle yard visible in the next shot lives in that shed.

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Don getting to grips with the technology. As revealed in the article on the previous visit, John's controllers have an especially varied selection of buttons to get to grips with.

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John’s son was doing the station signalman duties. He is here supervising David and Don’s efforts to shuffle trucks with the sound fitted 08, whose assorted chugs throbs and wines are certainly very atmospheric. If only steam sounds could be emulated so well. The 08 is on the centre road between the fast and slow lines, a passing express is in shot and presumably some of that steady stream of freight traffic is rumbling through on the slow roads just out of shot.

Our thanks to John and his family for making us welcome, again, and providing a happy afternoons entertainment. What was that about another invite?

Hang on, doesn’t that mean we’ve had two July meetings? Well, if the invite is good enough, these things happen.

[Will L]

Paint your wagon, coach, loco what ever.

For various reasons I was unable to attend our meeting on the 8th. Fortunately Don Roland has provided a write up and John Sherratt some interesting photos for me to play with. I'll let Don tell you all about it.

"August's meeting on Sunday 8th was something totally different when Adrian Prescott invited us to his home for a full-day workshop on painting and lining, preceded, most professionally, by comprehensive notes.

The morning was devoted to the mysteries of spray painting covering equipment, materials and techniques. It was well received, so much so that one member was still working away on one of his models well into the afternoon session.

This latter covered lining, for which numerous bow pens saw the unaccustomed light of day, some of them being used on Trevor Charlton carriage sides brought out especially for the occasion.

Amidst all the constant stream of hints and advice, the one which stood out so far as the writer is concerned was Adrian's rule of not rushing any painting job; after each stage it is put aside under a cover to harden. This certainly means a longer time in the workshop but gives a much more professional finish.

It was a very enjoyable and worthwhile day and our thanks go to Adrian and Lesley for their efforts and forbearance."

Adrian's talks are always meticulously well prepared. This was clearly no exception. Our stores officer is taking note.

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Peter, Tony David and Ron have clearly been enjoying the statutory coffee and biscuits. Lets hope they kept the crumbs of the wet paint!

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Adrian on the finer points of spay painting

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Creatures from the blue lagoon?
Adrian was very keen that all those who got involved in the spay painting should have the proper gear.
Adrian, Dick, David and Tony all wearing their protection.

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