Building NER carriages

[Daddyman]

unobservant picture consumption. Did other companies fit them? I shall have to have a look through some books...

I think it was my dad that spotted them, and probably said something to the effect that a real son would fit them. Or else did I want to be kept in the will - something like that.

Good grief: if I didn't know better, I'd say we had the same dad!

Think we all do...

(He didn't actually say this!)

[Will L]

...On the clerstorys i am working on (a d.18 brake), i had a devil of a job folding the clerstory side over because the fold line was not wide enough. Thus the fold would only go over about 70 degrees and because this d.18 is all windows with no solid panels, it started to buckle...

Are you aware that with a long bend like this it is often worth deepening the etch line with a triangular file (not square) until you can see a witness line on the other side. You should then be able to get the bend to go the full 90 degrees without too much difficulty.

As a bend corner will always have a small radius on the outside of the corner, this approach on any bend will sharpen up the appearance of the resulting corner. You'll only get one go at making the bend but with care this should not be a problem.

[Daddyman]

triangular file (not square)

I was going to suggest that, Will, but assumed Mark had already tried it. I must have tried it too a few years ago when I did the D.18 - it would have been my standard trick at the time, and presumably didn't work.

Incidentally, why not use a square file? I have often used a mini square one (the cheap ones that come in wallets) with really obstinate folds. It was something Chas suggested some time ago. His point was that it makes the angle of the groove "shallower" and it's thus easier to get to 90 degrees. Though admittedly we weren't talking about grooves but about nicking wire in order to bend it at a sharp right angle.

[Chas Levin]

triangular file (not square)

I was going to suggest that, Will, but assumed Mark had already tried it. I must have tried it too a few years ago when I did the D.18 - it would have been my standard trick at the time, and presumably didn't work.

Incidentally, why not use a square file? I have often used a mini square one (the cheap ones that come in wallets) with really obstinate folds. It was something Chas suggested some time ago. His point was that it makes the angle of the groove "shallower" and it's thus easier to get to 90 degrees. Though admittedly we weren't talking about grooves but about nicking wire in order to bend it at a sharp right angle.

Same here - I assumed Mark must already have tried that. And yes, I use square rather than triangular - the difference is only slight (90 degree corners versus 120 degrees) but every little helps and as David remembers, on wire or thin brass tube, it makes aligning the folded sides a little easier.

[bécasse]

I mark the right position using a sharp knife, start filing the groove using a triangular file and then finish with a square one - a sequence which makes it easy to ensure that the fold will be in exactly the right place. Once the wire has been folded to the correct shape (which could involve more than one fold in some situations, where it is taken back through or under the sole bar to provide a more secure fixation, for example), I reinforce the joint using some high-melting-point silver-content solder.

[Daddyman]

Right, this one is now more or less finished - just need the bolsters from MJT. Last jobs, which have taken most of the day, were adding a few gas lines - one down the end of the clerestory to meet the one on the end of the body, and two from the toilet fittings to meet the main gas line on the clerestory roof. The other job was undoing the toilet roof details and redoing them! I wasn't happy with the position of the handrails knobs, which I felt were too far from the lamp hoods. I plugged the old holes and drilled new ones a millimetre or so inboard. Happier with it now. The clerestory handrail isn't showing me up to badly in this shot - tweaking is still possible.

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Roof, underframe and bogies now need a good clean, then can be primed.

Two to go...

[Will L]

...Incidentally, why not use a square file? ...

Because it doesn't work. If you're a sheet metal workers, and want to form a fold, then the craftsman approved method is to scoring the fold line then open up the score with a triangular file until you get a witness line on the other side. I think you ignore their wisdom at your peril. I certainty use this method when scratch building brass sheet fittings like square sand boxes and the like. I suspect that if you use a square file you you still haven't opened up a slot enough for the fold to do the full 90 degrees. If you've tried using a square file in the past and failed then that is the probable reason.

[Daddyman]

If you've tried using a square file in the past and failed then that is the probable reason.

No, it's worked OK - though I've tended to use the triangular file to get the witness line, then widen the groove with the square file.

[Will L]

... I've tended to use the triangular file to get the witness line, then widen the groove with the square file.

I would have though the triangular file would always give the wider grove (120 as against 90 degees)?

[Daddyman]

I would have though the triangular file would always give the wider grove (120 as against 90 degees)?

Isn't a triangular one 60 degrees?! Seem to remember them going on at school for five years about angles always adding up to 180 degrees in a triangle?

[Chas Levin]

I would have though the triangular file would always give the wider grove (120 as against 90 degees)?

Isn't a triangular one 60 degrees?! Seem to remember them going on at school for five years about angles always adding up to 180 degrees in a triangle?

Oh goodness: my error there, yes, triangular files must have 60 degree angles.

Clearly I completely misunderstood the difference between them and this would explain why so many people do use triangular ones including you, Will... but, like David, I've used square files with equal success too.

All I can suppose is that as the square needle files I have are noticeably smaller in size than the trinagular ones, perhaps I've simply found them easier to fit into the initial half-etch line and made my mistaken angular assumptions from that?

Apologies if I've accidentally misled anyone...

[Daddyman]

Remember that we're using a square file in a triangular orientation... just an isosceles rather than an equilateral.

[Will L]

... I've tended to use the triangular file to get the witness line, then widen the groove with the square file.

I would have though the triangular file would always give the wider grove (120 as against 90 degees)?

Hum. Think I may have had one too may glasses of wine with my dinner last night.
However, one thing I do remain clear about is that the triangular file is the right tool for the job. This is based on doing not theory. We have discus this all before, it came up when considering the value of a Hold and Fold (possibly useful but certainly not necessary) which were relatively new at the time (14 years ago... gulp). see here viewtopic.php?f=7&t=628&p=3202&hilit=triangular#p3164

[davebradwell]

I suspect the triangular file (isn't it called a 3-square?) just follows the original line better. In practice you're only using the radius on the corner of the file to deepen the etched groove so it's unlikely to matter what the angle is between the flat sides. Finer cut files with sharper corners will give different results but the metal will always bend at the weakest point so difficult to go wrong.

DaveB

[Chas Levin]

I take it the bogies didn't arrive? - I posted them 1st class yesterday.

Meanwhile, in other news, Royal Mail made good on their Saturday omission and delivered the package of etches and bogie parts today: thank you again David, very generous of you! They will in due course resurface under as yet only planned coaches, while the Sentinel railcar toplight etches I mentioned on another forum and that are on the way will, I hope, provide a more tangible 'Thank you' too...

[Daddyman]

Good to hear, Chas!

[Daddyman]

Sh*te and onions!

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[MikeAllerton]

Sh*te and onions!
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Jeepers, I'd better get mine up for sale PDQ then

[Daddyman]

Sh*te and onions!
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Jeepers, I'd better get mine up for sale PDQ then

I was worried you'd say that...

And at the same time silently hoping that you would, in case you offered them to me at an attractive price!

[MikeAllerton]

David

I have one of each of DS171, DS172 and DS173, and a couple of Bill Bedford NER kits BCK 030 Diag 159 Corridor Full brake and BCK 031 Diag 153 Corridor Brake First. The last two probably aren't difficult enough for you as they don't have clerestories (and I think they may have vacuum formed plastic roofs, the kits that is not the originals!)

Happy to discuss a sensible price.

Cheers
Mike

[Daddyman]

DS173 ... sensible price

Get thee behind me, Satan!




Tempting.

[billb]

Incidentally, why not use a square file?

Because the file can't be held at precisely the right angle, this means the grove always has a wider angle than the file. The workflow would be something like getting the depth of the grove right and then taking excess off the shoulders. The same thinking applies to square holes. If a triangular file is used, the corner angles will be 60º plus, and the sides can be filed flat, while if a square file is used, the corners will be 120º plus, and the sides can't be filed to shape.

[MikeAllerton]

DS173 ... sensible price

Get thee behind me, Satan!




Tempting.

I missed one, I've also got the 'Special Limited Issue' DS 805 Composite Dining Car Dia 166, though you won't want that one either ..... tempt, tempt, tempt ....

[Chas Levin]

Incidentally, why not use a square file?

Because the file can't be held at precisely the right angle, this means the grove always has a wider angle than the file. The workflow would be something like getting the depth of the grove right and then taking excess off the shoulders.

Morning Bill, are you saying that it should be easier to hold a triangular file at an accurate angle because you're trying to maintain a flat face horizontal ly, as opposed to using a square file, where you're trying to maintain a right-angled corner pointing vertically?

If so, I would respectfully disagree, as I've done both and I find them equally easy/difficult.

[Daddyman]

Only one thing for it - an experiment. In both cases, cheap-and-nasty wallet-sourced "needle files" (the type that are roughly 10cm long). Square file on the left, triangular on the right. After five passes there is a witness line on the reverse with the triangular file but not with the square; the groove from the square file is noticeably wider. My takeaway is "no need to change my process", which is: start with a triangular file until the witness mark starts to appear; change to square file if a wider groove is needed (for example in 15 thou).

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