A Small project worth doing in P4?

[Josh C]

Hi There,

Have been considering about putting a small layout above the workbench in my shed now for a while, The shed isn't particularly big (6ftx5ft ruffly) However this is big enough to fit a small layout on a 7ft radius in! So have been tinkering around in Templot and came up with the attachment below.



The size is 6ft by 4.5ft and the black line is where the baseboard will end, the lines with numbers attached show the size of the V crossing. The fiddle yard will begin where at the left hand end of the 3-way and will probably be a traverser unless anyone else has any other ideas?

The idea of the layout is to give me a insight to a few things, one is to try a small layout with sound and see if dcc and sound is something for me and secondly to get a insight into hand built track work in which there are 2 options:

1) is to use copper clad for points and SMP flexti-track for everything else. (Swaying towards this one at the moment)

2) is to use go down the real timbers and chairs route?

Is there any benefits between the two, except the 2nd option looks more realistic?

So why post this on your guest book?

Now beings I'm considering to go down the hand built track work route, the other thing boggling around in my mind is should I try it in p4?

My main concern about the scale is I don't think I have ever seen a successfully running P4 layout at any of the exhibitions I've been to ?

For stock it will be early diesels with all green ends including a Hornby 31 (fitted with sound) and a Hornby 08 (Currently being resprayed with green ends and may even get fitted with sound one day )

Say its just a ruff Idea at the moment, but could do with something to run my collection of green diesels and keep me occupied till a bit of space for a full on future project so could this could easily become a reality

Thanks in advance

Josh

[David Knight]

Hi Josh,

What you have here is a variation on the "Inglnook" design which is expanded upon here; http://www.wymann.info/ShuntingPuzzles/ ... enook.html
Can this be done in P4? You bet! A couple of notes though; a three way switch is not the easiest to start with so build your simple right hand switch first for the experience. Ply and rivet construction as outlined in Iain Rice's book "An Approach to Building Finescale Track in 4 mm scale" (Wild Swan) might be a option as would the kits marketed by C&L and The P4 Track Co.. Both C&L and P4 track market flex track BTW. Diesels are a good choice for conversion as they pose far fewer problems and drop in wheelsets can be obtained. I made a similar, even simpler start to P4 using ply and rivet and it worked in all senses.

HTH

David

[smyles]

I would suggest a 6ft shelf layout along one wall. To have the baseboards going diagonally in a curve will seriously reduce working space. When building a layout space soon gets cluttered with tools, wood, scenery scatters, etc etc. At present I am building a 7ft 6in X 1ft layout in the dining room and space has become very restricted and cluttered. Go for P4 and I would suggest using P4 Track Co kits, expensive but not excessively so for a small layout. The points are very easy to build with all the blades and crossings ready filed and give very smooth running. I would avoid copper-clad sleepering as they never look realistic. Ply sleepers with C&L chairs look good.
As for running, at S4um this year all the running I saw was smooth and without derailments. Your diesels will run very well.
Good luck,
Mike

[Paul Willis]

Have been considering about putting a small layout above the workbench in my shed now for a while, The shed isn't particularly big (6ftx5ft ruffly) However this is big enough to fit a small layout on a 7ft radius in! So have been tinkering around in Templot and came up with the attachment below.

That looks pretty convincing, and given that it is on a large radius, you should have no problem in building it in P4.

The idea of the layout is to give me a insight to a few things, one is to try a small layout with sound and see if dcc and sound is something for me and secondly to get a insight into hand built track work in which there are 2 options:
1) is to use copper clad for points and SMP flexti-track for everything else. (Swaying towards this one at the moment)
2) is to use go down the real timbers and chairs route?

If you choose (2), which I would recommend,be aware that there are a number of possibilities:
- ply and rivet
- ply and plastic chairs
- plastic sleepers and chairs

Each can have its own weaknesses and benefits. For example, building a 3-way using plastic point kits _can_ be done - Terry Bendall has done it, just to prove that it can, and it works very well - but it is probably easier to use ply and rivet to allow for adjustments as there are a lot of rails to fit in a small space.

However the P4Track Company now do a large range of kits and plain track that will get you started quickly and easily. http://www.exactoscale.co.uk/4mmtrack.html

Have you had a look at our "Moving to P4" booklet? It's a free download from http://www.scalefour.org/resources/Moving-to-P4.pdf

It includes a discussion of all the key considerations about making track, and many other things besides, including conversion of diesels.

So why post this on your guest book?
Now beings I'm considering to go down the hand built track work route, the other thing boggling around in my mind is should I try it in p4?

Why not?

My main concern about the scale is I don't think I have ever seen a successfully running P4 layout at any of the exhibitions I've been to ?

I think that you must have been very unfortunate in your choice of exhibition... Whilst any layout that has been lugged in and out of a Transit, bashed around Britain's roads, and then erected in a draughty yet roasting hall can be expected to show a problem or two, P4 layouts can be just as reliable as those to any other gauge. All that it takes is a little care in assembly, and that is were the challenge that is attractive to modellers comes in.

For stock it will be early diesels with all green ends including a Hornby 31 (fitted with sound) and a Hornby 08 (Currently being resprayed with green ends and may even get fitted with sound one day )

A little after the period that you are aiming for, but an excellent example of diesel modelling (and a very well-behaving layout!) is Portchullin. Have a look at http://portchullin.fotopic.net/ and see what you think.

And there are *plenty* of D&E modellers in the Society that can give you help in converting locos to P4. The conversions are generally much more straightforward than for steam locomotives. And of course, you can ask any questions here!

HTH
Flymo

[Hardwicke]

Josh,
I would not use SMP track. It has gauge errors that will only cause problems in the future. C&L or P4 Track Co are your best bet. I have used both but now go for the latter although it is marginally more expensive you don't have to set up your own switchblades or vees and you also get a much better detailed product. Having said that I made a three throw, which is similar, but more difficult than a three way (the clearances are even tighter). I had to make a new 'middle vee' for it which was not difficult but the whole thing took ages to get working correctly, which in the glare of exhibitions is not good. After about five attempts it works now. Just take things slowly and don't give up. You might want to scream a it sometimes but when you get it right you can't beat the feeling. I have since built a three way point like the one you propose, from P4 Track parts. It works. The rest of the layout is still 'in progress'.
The Bachmann or Hornby 08's convert well, see my article in Scalefour News about 3 years ago. However all of mine are due works visits much like the real thing for traction motor problems (gears slipping on axles) or moved cranks. Falling off the end of the fiddleyard, four and a half feet onto the floor of Wells Town Hall doesn't help either!
If you have problems with any running, check for wobble and squareness and gauge accuracy. Get these right and it should work.
I've converted Heljan 47's, Hymeks, Bachmann 08's, 20's and 25's and Hornby 08's, 31's and 50's all with Gibson wheels.
I would add a photo but there doesn't seem to be any options to do this.
Good luck

[grovenor-2685]

I would add a photo but there doesn't seem to be any options to do this.

The ability to illustrate your posts with photos, drawings etc. Is one of the strengths of the forum!
See http://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14 and http://www.scalefour.org/forum/faq.php

To upload as an attachment use the 'Upload attachment' tab just below the composition window, use 'place inline' to incorporate it in your text, otherwise they will be attached at the bottom.
To link to pictures on an external site then use the Img tag (above the composition window) and put the url of the image between the tags.
There are plenty of examples already on the forum!
regards
Keith

[Hardwicke]

I agree that the ability to post images in the forum is a great strength as I have done elsewhere but in the guest area I don't have this ability. In the main page for the guest area it shows this;

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[grovenor-2685]

Sorry, you are right about the guest area, you have to do as Josh did and link to an external site. I'll investigate if this can be adjusted.
Keith

[Allan Goodwillie]

Hi Josh,
just go ahead and build it, I would also suggest building your own track using wooden sleepers and rivets, you can always add chairs at a later date. The satisfaction of making it yourself is greater, although I am sure that building the P4 Track company points will also give satisfaction.

Two warnings however:

I started to build the way I meant to go on, and your small experimental plank may end up being a 50' monster after a couple of years, mine did.

I built 8 three way points over a Christmas holiday one time for a storage yard on my Grayrigg layout. They all worked fine, but I would not recommend having too many things on the go at one time, especially when starting, just enjoy each aspect as you deal with it and reasonable care will produce a good result you will be proud of.

Get yourself a good working loco (the diesel loco is the simplest and quickest) and a wagon that has no compensation and which is a longer type (say a 21t hopper or brake van), it must sit level on a mirror (double check the wheels are properly in gauge) and use this to check how flat you are laying your track. If a non compensated wagon will work ok then your compensated ones will work so much smoother.

I would recommend cork as a base, it is easier to deal with if there are any changes in level, as it can be sanded to your satisfaction.Care taken over baseboard construction and underlay laying really does pay, yet this is the bit most passed over for the more interesting aspects of model building.

We have a number of starters in the West of Scotland 4mm group who are all going to be building something for the first time this year. We are starting with a working engine (all steam). We are doing it as a course, which will lead to other aspects of construction. contact with your local group would be of great use I am sure and it will also give encouragement.

All the best to your project

Allan

[Mark Tatlow]

Hi Josh

There is plenty of good advice in this thread (especially Allan’s comments about flat baseboards – a regretfully much overlooked topic). I only have a couple of things to add or echo upon.

Getting your first loco going is a real spur to getting moving. If you can wait for the Ultrascale wheels to be delivered, then buy a set or two of their conversion sets for a diesel. They really are a case of popping out the original wheels and popping in the new ones - it now takes me about the same time to get the model out of its box than to convert them! Using the Gibson wheelsets are only marginally more time-consuming (and are generally delivered within 48 hours even at Christmas!).

The Scalefour News has "how to do it" conversion articles quite regularly (there are some coming up in the Feb edition) and there is a effort being made to convert some of these into Digests* - I am afraid that I don't think the class 31 has yet been done but a fair number of others have, if you have a specific requirement contact me off line and we will see what we can find that is similar.

I would then go for a relatively simple turnout - potentially do this as a workbench "trial" rather than the finished item for the layout. I would steer you towards the P4 Track Co’s kits – the crossings and switch blades come ready formed and this saves a big dollop of work and one of the more tricky bits too.

You need to crack a means of making a reliable turnout operating unit (TOU). In the short term, a copper clad sleeper is fine but for a scenic turnout you will want to use one of the more discrete solutions.

Much of P4 modelling is made easier with the use of gauges; you must have a back to back gauge and a couple of track gauges to get going – Iain Rice’s book is a good place to start in seeing these in use.

Finally, good luck with the venture!



Mark



* PS - if anybody is doing a desiel/steam conversion and wishes (or could be cajouled!) to write a "how to do it" with plenty of photographs, could they contact either Terry Bendal, Bob Bourne or myself?

[Allan Goodwillie]

Hi Mark,

I already have started this elsewhere on this site in the section for beginners, I am intending following the program I have worked out for our beginners in the West of Scotland Group. and will invite other beginners to consider following and contributing to the thread.

It will cover a range of conversions and simple chassis building techniques intended for the absolute beginner and will look at problems we meet on the way. The lads are going to be building a range of kits mainly with a couple of proprietary conversions using Comet chassis and a couple of scratch building chassis thrown in. I hope to put out a contribution at least once a month and it is also hoped that we will cover a good range of things over the year.

Contributions from other experienced modellers, like yourself,who would like to contribute with the beginner in mind will be most welcome. I have started with a look at drawings and some of the pitfalls.

I will be producing a couple of demonstration chassis working from scratch, one using compensation and one using sprung horn blocks as these are the most common types of chassis built by the members and something which the beginner can try. I also wish to keep the tools etc. to a minimum and no fancy expensive equipment either.

The next contribution will show the use of a cutting diagram, simple for anyone considering building a chassis from scratch, or a more complex one for a complete locomotive. When I started the first locomotive I built required a scratch built chassis and the second locomotive was completely scratch built. I am assuming that beginners to the gauge may range from the tentative to the ambitious, so I want to appeal to all. I am also more than happy to admit mistakes I have made and wish to keep others away from the same pitfalls. Tried and tested is what I will be covering to maximise success.

Hoping you and others may contribute, perhaps all that is learned through this thread could be put together and edited later as a download. The lads have already started on their engines so there may be more contributions this month. Given that it is Christmas then some people reading this will be starting projects and considering contributing, if so please get in touch.

Allan