Rapido Manning Wardle

[nberrington]

Now this does look interesting ….

https://www.hattons.co.uk/directory/ver ... nouncement

[David Knight]

Tempting, yes, but for P4 purposes probably better to go with CSP models who have several MWs or RT Models who do two. Mark S built a CSP one and was pleased with the kit.

Cheers,

David

[MarkS]

Yup, I thoroughly enjoyed building the CSP kit - it was chronicled here - viewtopic.php?f=95&t=5624
But mine was a Q class, the Rapido ones are slightly different.
As you two recall, I was about to, but now have, re-wheeled my Rapido Hunslet to P4 - no lathes were involved!
Here they are... (Mine was an unpainted production sample, thus my custom paint job)

[Mark Tatlow]

Mark

Can you share how you rewheeled the Rapido Hunslett?



Mark

[Captain Kernow]

Yes, please share the process of converting the Hunslet!

I have pretty much given up on Rapido in terms of conversion to P4. It is impossible to simply separate chassis and body (as in Bachmann, Hornby etc.) by the removal of two screws, fore and aft, because with Rapido, the body is the chassis and vice versa. The construction of their Hunslet varies very little from that of the 16XX pannier they did for Model Rail.

You are held hostage to the type of (coreless) motor that they provide and their gearing ratio and also relying on their drive system to deliver smooth motion on the track. With a Bachmann loco, for example, even their recent 94XX pannier, removing the body is simplicity itself, allowing you to build a substitute chassis in P4 (or EM), with your chosen combination of motor and gearbox.

I ended up sending my Hunslet back, because even in OO as it came, it was not a very smooth runner (and my AMR controller doesn't seem to get on with modern coreless motors - it is fine with Portescaps, by the way) and in any case, I have a Judith Edge kit for the same loco and some P4 wheels waiting.

I have no doubt that the Manning Wardle will provide the same level of frustration and disappointment...

[Horsetan]

...I have pretty much given up on Rapido in terms of conversion to P4. It is impossible to simply separate chassis and body (as in Bachmann, Hornby etc.) by the removal of two screws, fore and aft, because with Rapido, the body is the chassis and vice versa. ...

That's deliberate, and intended to stop people fiddling about with the product. I expect the USATC S160 to be the same, but will still buy one to have a closer look at how they did it.

[Captain Kernow]

That's deliberate, and intended to stop people fiddling about with the product. I expect the USATC S160 to be the same, but will still buy one to have a closer look at how they did it.

Oh indeed, it is quite deliberate, but I deplore it nonetheless.

[Steve Carter]

James Walter and I were invited to visit Rapidos UK base recently and we spent a very enjoyable and interesting day with their helpful team.

Rapido UK are very keen to understand how they can improve their designs to help finescale modellers convert their products to P4 or EM.

They have had a very good start with their RTR wagons that are very much convertible to P4 as our Chairman described in Scalefour News 230. I spoke to Rapidos manager shortly after Jeremy had first converted one of their open wagons and we shared the article with them as they were very interested in understanding Jeremy's methods, problems etc.

Rapido will shortly be introducing a limited run of RCH 1907 PO Wagons and these wagon have all the fine detail and 26mm axles that their previous freight stock have plus they have been designed with chamfered brake blocks to assist conversion using drop in finescale wheel sets.

Hopefully, this will be appreciated by finescale modellers and is another example of a manufacturer considering those of us outside of their mainstream market of OO?

Whilst James and I were at Rapido, we talked about some of the issues in converting their locos to P4 that have been highlighted on our Forum. We were asked if a Scalefour Society member who had experience in converting OO locos to P4 would be interested in talking to them so that the Rapido design team could understand what's involved.

As a result of this request I am facilitating a visit to Rapido by our own Mike Ainsworth who has been known to convert one or two RTR OO locos to P4

I am impressed with what Rapido are doing in the 4mm market and find that their designers are very keen to understand and help finescale modellers where they can.

[Hardwicke]

Now an S160 would be nice if it converts well. I won't be getting their Hunslet as I too have a Judith Edge one. The MW depends on the version. I think it's an "I"I require.

[Horsetan]

Now an S160 would be nice if it converts well.....

It's probably too late for the S160, as they've likely already decided how the chassis will go together.

[Hardwicke]

Of course if Rapido made P4 wheels as Accurascale do...

[MarkS]

First, full disclosure, I work for Rapido Trains here in Canada, thus I have some insight to what it takes for a major manufacturer to produce model trains. Although it is a subsidiary, the UK office is quite independent, especially when it comes to the choice of models they produce. As Steve Carter has pointed out, with the design team now based in the UK, they are open to considering EM and P4 modellers, as long as it makes financial sense.
The Hunslet does have an issue with the excess lubrication from the factory, a common problem for N. American diesels as well.
Rapido recommends removing the PTFE grease using Deluxe Materials “Track Magic”. My model, being an unpainted production sample didn’t have much lubricant, so ran well from the beginning. However, I have added a dusting of graphite powder, held in place by the residual grease.
The coreless motor in the Hunslet is the same as the J70 and are in various N scale diesels. These motors are primarily designed for DCC, so many older DC controllers from last century are not necessarily suitable for them.

The Stirling Single, J70, 16xx and lastly, the Hunslet were designed in the USA by the same person who designed the Royal Hudson locomotive for Rapido here in Canada. These share a design philosophy with HO models where different track gauges are not an issue and re-wheeling (other than P87) is not a consideration.
The USA bit is important, most of the US (and UK) manufacturers use the same Chinese factories, but unlike Metric Canada, our neighbours to the south still use Imperial measurements. The axle diameter that is ‘around’ 2.4 mm is actually 3/32” which happens to be a common stub axle diameter for N. American diesels.

The conversion to P4…
I gave the conversion considerable thought, but once I realized the axle diameter was 3/32”, the plan became clear - a piece of tube with ID of 3/32” & OD of 1/8” was easily found and six 4mm long tubes were cut and fitted to a set of Gibson 3’8” (Caley Pug) wheels.

Hunslet P4 wheels.JPG

Some Bedford shorting strips were fitted, and these stub axle wheels were slipped onto the original 3/32” axles.

Hunslet shorting strip.JPG

I had two problems occur from this arrangement - one wheel is not perfectly round and secondly when I “Loctited” the stubs to the axles, I was too precise and two of the stubs were insulated! This was soon corrected, but was a bit annoying.
The centre axles are sprung, and the Rapido connecting rods are not articulated, so new rods were in order. I found a set of Perseverance ones that fit the Hunslet wheelbase.

Hunslet sprung axle.JPG

The brakes and guard irons don't quite line up but I will ignore that for now. It runs very quietly and smoothly, but waddles a bit due to the one wheel that is out of round, wobbly or both.

[Mark Tatlow]

Thank you Mark, that does look doable for most people.

Certainly I am going to have a bash!!

[nberrington]

Thanks Mark! The photos do help understand what you were trying to explain to me at the Symposium in April.

Do you think the Manning Wardle design will be similar?

Not having to bash the heck out of the thing to change the wheels makes this an accessible model for P4.

[MarkS]

No, not a lot of bashing involved, but there is some light tapping to remove the axles from the OO wheels...
I doubt the Manning Wardle will be the same, for starters, it is being designed in the UK and my understanding is the split axle design of the Hunslet has not curried much favour with the UK designers...

[nberrington]

Mark - are the axles long enough? Did you need a small shim on the ends ? Getting the back to back might be tricky?

[MarkS]

Neil, the axles are about a millimetre short on each end, so I just filled the cavity with Tamiya filler and filed it smooth.
The back to back was tricky, I had to be careful not to measure on the shorting strips, although I did file a shallow slot in the back of the flange for the strip.

[Captain Kernow]

The news that Rapido (UK) are now hosting a visit from Mike Ainsworth is very good news indeed.

I have been extremely critical of Rapido on RMWeb, partially fuelled by my considerable disappointment that the 16XX could not be more easily converted.

One easy win for the future is to design a loco where a couple of screws (fore and aft) can be removed and a complete chassis removed from an intact body. Bachmann have done this with their lovely 94XX, which came out at about the same time as the 16XX. Why is it so difficult for other manufacturers?

I know John Farmer has converted a 16XX to P4, but this was a laborious process (in my opinion at least, sorry John!!) and involved Ultrascale (LNER) wheels, 2mm rod (the 16XX axles are said to be 2mm), inserted into 1/8" O/D, 2mm I/D pieces of tube.

I applied some finishing touches to John's model. The original (plastic) brake gear wouldn't fit at all, without extensive re-building, so I ended up using a spare brake gear etch I found in my spares box (not sure of provenance but it seemed to match) and made it up so that it was removable.

I also bought a 16XX, with the intention of converting it to P4 as well, but my plan all along was to take the body off and use the excellent Nu-Cast Partners (designed by Justin Newitt) chassis. But that plan didn't work out, because I declined to also completely dismantle the main individual body components, cut one or two of them about, in order to arrive at a distinctly separate body.

At the time, Rapido spun me the same line about this kind of design being 'much favoured' in the rest of the world, conveniently overlooking that 'the rest of the world' wouldn't need to convert to a wider gauge.

I was also not impressed by the running quality of my 16XX (I don't particularly like modern coreless motors), so in the end I sold it. I did get a Hunslet, but that didn't run particularly well either, so that was returned to the shop and I decided to wash my hands of Rapido steam outline models.

Now my resolve is wavering, with the 44XX in the offing and especially with the Manning Wardle. What to do?!

[Horsetan]

... my resolve is wavering, with the 44XX in the offing and especially with the Manning Wardle. What to do?!

Make sure you can return it if it turns out not to match your expectations?

[Captain Kernow]

... my resolve is wavering, with the 44XX in the offing and especially with the Manning Wardle. What to do?!

Make sure you can return it if it turns out not to match your expectations?

Exactly so, Ivan.

[Mark Tatlow]

A bump on this topic for the gent (sorry, I did not get your name) who discussed the conversion of the Rapido Hunslett with me at Scalefour South East, this is the article I referred to.

Slightly unfairly, it has the title of the Manning Wardle which it is in part about, but on the 9 Sept MarkS outlined how he converted his. Achievable was my conclusion but you are likely to want a piller drill or lathe to press the tube home.

[MarkS]

I run the Hunslet slowly, it is still a bit wobbly at high speeds, however it does get out and about from time to time...
I think it could do with some weathering.